Editor’s Note: Candace Chellew-Hodge is the pastor of Jubilee! Circle church in Columbia, South Carolina. She is the founder and editor of Whosoever.org, an online magazine for LGBT Christians and the author of "Bulletproof Faith: A Spiritual Survival Guide for Gay and Lesbian Christians." Rev. Chellew-Hodge blogs regularly at Religion Dispatches.
This piece is a response to an opinion by Rev. Kenneth Hutcherson, published on this blog on February 8.
By Rev. Candace Chellew-Hodge, Special to CNN
(CNN) - Sometimes, when I’m standing in a long line at the grocery store, I kind of wish I had the civilization-destroying power that people who preach against homosexuality accuse me of having. Perhaps then the lines wouldn’t be as long, or perhaps people in front of me would part to allow the social leper to get out of the store quickly.
When I contemplate my relatively dull life of work, household chores and the occasional excitement of an evening spent with friends, I have to wonder who in the world people like Rev. Kenneth Hutcherson are talking about when they write about gays and lesbians. You see, each evening I come home to my loving partner of 11 years. She and I work, pay our bills, pay our taxes, and according to Canadian law, we are married.
If you ask Hutcherson, however, I am a source of society’s pending doom. He wrote on CNN’s In America blog recently that while he loves gay and lesbian people, our ongoing existence outside of the closet - and our temerity to suggest that we might be treated as equal human beings - “will kill you.” Funny, I feel fine.
Hutcherson backs up his belief with bible verses, and I deeply understand and respect his fervent feelings on this matter. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church, the daughter of the pastor in the pulpit. I know the verses he uses inside and out, and I know how deeply he abuses those verses and the scripture when he quotes them against gays and lesbians. However, slinging bible verses doesn’t move the conversation very far, so I’ll leave it to other commentators to do that.
What I want to say to people like Hutcherson - who believe that homosexuality will be the downfall of society but say they love us anyway – is this: Love me a little less, and yourself a little more. I know Hutcherson’s desperate kind of “love” compels him to want to turn gay and lesbian people away from “sin.” It’s palpable even when reading it rendered as flat pixels on a screen. I understand this kind of desperate love, because members of my family have expressed it to me with similar passion. When you believe people are hurtling toward the abyss, especially people that you love, you do everything in your power to stop them – even using dire warnings like how their “sin” will “kill” them.
I’m sure that anti-gay religious folk really do feel that they love me, and all those other chaos causing gays and lesbians, but what they may not realize is that it is their very words that continue to drive a wedge between otherwise well-meaning Christians and gays and lesbians. What Hutcherson’s words really do is stir up more strife and hatred against gays and lesbians, usually among people who already have a prejudice against such people. Sadly, that type of rhetoric has sparked violence against gays and lesbians. It also drives more and more gay and lesbian people away from God, away from the church, and into a place of self-loathing that may manifest itself in drug or alcohol abuse.
For Hutcherson, it just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when gay and lesbian people kill themselves, either by suicide or addiction. See? he can say. Their sin led to their demise.
In truth, though, it is the sin of Hutcherson and his allies that leads to death for gay and lesbian people. It is the constant assertion that gay and lesbian people are "filthy" or "sick" - just some of the things I’ve been called over the years - or “intrinsically disordered” as the Catholic Church puts it, that drives many gay and lesbian people to the brink. As a teenager, I attempted suicide because of the messages I received from my church that I was hated by God for my “sin,” even though I had not even been sexually intimate with another woman at that point. It was the sin of the church, however, that led me to that desperate act – not any “sin” I had yet to commit.
It has taken me nearly half of my life to come to understand myself as a loved and blessed child of God who was hardwired by my creator to fall in love with someone of the same gender. I had to make my way through the bible, through church teaching, and finally seminary to discover that no one can create my relationship with God other than me. The Kenneth Hutchersons of the world can rant and rave all they want about my “sin,” but my final judge is God – and I have seen proof after proof of God’s love for me just as I am.
That is what I seek to spread in my role as the pastor of a small church in Columbia, South Carolina– that God loves us all and that real love heals and never divides. That doesn’t help shorten the line at the grocery store, but it sure makes the wait a bit sweeter.
The opinions expressed are solely those of Candace Chellew-Hodge.
You generation of vipers.....lay down your stones and walk away
I will make you a deal, I will choose to be straight, when you make women have broader shoulders, facial hair and like football. Thanks.
Jimmie Lee said:
Psych, was this directed at me?
Every time I hear someone talk about how depraved I am, how my lifestyle is sick, how I'm what's wrong with society, that my sinful life will lead me to a miserable death and eternity in hell, etc. I quietly smile to myself, secure in the knowledge that those people will never truly be happy and free until they free themselves & let go of their hatred for me. It's very difficult to love and be loved when you hate others. Think it over. I'm not asking you to celebrate me, all I'm asking you to do is tolerate me and leave me alone – the same thing I do with you. I'm not a parade marching, gay pride celebrating type. I'm quiet. I keep to myself. The most in your face thing I've ever done is sneak a quick peck of a kiss while on a date – in public (gasp! the shock!). I work hard and keep to myself. Maybe if you have a problem with my life, you could try doing the same thing.
Charlie – you make a great point, and I totally agree. As a Bible literalist – I dont back down from what it says, but the Jesus is pretty clear we are to love one another – even when we believe someone to be headed in the wrong direction spiritually. That said – if can tolerate your decision – then surely you can tolerate my belief. It really can work that way. I bless you anyway – by the way!
Well people, when you get right down to it, we won't know anything for sure until we get to heaven. But I do know anger, hatred and bigotry will not get you there easily.
another rug doctor
holy crap, that's original! I've never heard it before, you must be a genius. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
There are three undeniable truths that I think all the Christians and the bigots should face:
#1 I – and by "I" I mean all gay people – don't care about you. I don't care that you believe I'm sick or am going to hell or am in violation of church doctrine of which you are so certain. Condemn me all you like. I do not care what you think, feel, or believe about me.
#2 What you do – ah, that's another matter entirely. I will not be treated like a second-class citizen any longer. No more hiding, no more taking the abuse, no more being denied my inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I will have my equality. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but I will never give up until ti is achieved.
#2 I am not going anywhere. Do whatever you need to do make yourself feel superior. It's OK, because at the end of the day I will still be here...just like I've been my entire life...just like those that have come before me for (at least) as long as there as been recorded history. And when I'm gone, there will still be more. So many more.
Have a nice day.
David I think you make some great points – yes, there is a place where the church should just leave you alone, and I agree – if you feel so strongly that your spiritual path is the right one – you SHOULDNT care one nip what I, God or anyone else thinks or says! Those are great points, and spot on in my opinion.
However, by the same measure – why would you want to be a partaker of "Marriage" – which was God ordained, and orginated? No one is telling you can't "be" gay, or do whatever you want. Its not hate to say "Uh, God said it was wrong.." etc its just a fact, its not judgement if you admit that is what you "do". So my point is – no one is trying to "force" gays not to be gay (there are some yes who make noise like that, but they are just ignorant) – the gist of this article, or the inspiration of this (very long) message board is ; dont think society is going to let YOU change it, just because its what YOU believe.
How is that not fair?
Um, I'm pretty sure God said "be fruitful and multiply." If that was God's will, why would he hardwire someone that would directly contradict what he wants? I have nothing against gays or the whole ordeal but I just what this writer to know that if they really knew the Bible verses...they wouldn't have made a mistake in saying that God hardwired them to be gay or even making the bigger mistake to know the verses in and out, when new things about the verses are created and found everyday. Do not act like you know better than others just because you're an ordained reverend. Do not say God made you that way because God made us (as I said earlier) "to be fruitful and multiply." Do not say things that you are not even sure about? How do you know you're doing what God wants? How do you know? You may follow the Bible somewhat, but it doesn't make you the expert to know what and how God made things. No one does, we including you only speculate what may be the truth. Doesn't mean you know that God made you the way you are. No one does, I'm not saying that I know that you aren't gay. What I am saying is that you cannot be sure of something that no one is really sure of.
NaloBoi259, I think you're too focused on the "be fruitful and multiply', Have you read what the bible has to say about eunuchs and their inability to have children. It's quite a positive message to them. Knowing this, from a biblical persepective, having children is not a requirement by God for ALL people. And, it's certainly not a requirement to get into heaven. There is only one requirement for that: love thy neighbor as thyself.
Note to self regarding above comment to NaloBoi259: Loving thy neighbor as self gets one into heaven immediately. Failure to follow this Law of loving neighbor as self results in temporary punishment for disobedience. Note, I did say temporary punishment, not eternal.
love thy neighbor isn't the one requirement to get into heaven.... its a commandment. Accepting Christ as your savior and upholding the commandments and repenting your sins would be a good start in getting into heaven,simply loving your neighbor isn't a guarantee for anything but having a friendly neighbor if you need a cup a sugar.
Jimmie Lee says: Yours is the expected response in terms of the modern day bibles we have. However, based on the original bible, I will have to disagree with you. Please read Romans 2:13 and tell me which law is being referenced there. Thanks, Eville11.
Catholic priests have been trying to be "fruitful and multiply" with little boys for years, whats wrong with other people try!!
So, NaloBoi, are you saying that you have a more thorough knowledge of The Bible than an ordained minister?
Obviously she knows what she's talking about.
Be fruitful and multiply refers to the ideas of ministry and evangelism, as well as reproduction. When a person uses the Gospel to bring someone love, or bring them closer to God in their way, they are being fruitful and multiplying God's fold. What is the hate preaching "Christian" doing when it condemns ANY of God's children? Being destructive and dividing. We all know that division is the opposite of multiplication.
Back in the time that the Bible was written it was a time on the globe that reproduction was necessary. God wanted people to populate the earth. He did not saying being gay was a "sin," but he was encouraging people to "multiply" in order to keep the world going. Gays and Lesbians did not have this ability there fore it was not encourage.... However- in case you didnt know- lesbians and gay people have the ability to "multiply" now due to science (sperm donors- surrogates etc)... and those who dont want to multiply can adopt a child (because our world is full of children without homes- and populating the earth isnt really an issue anymore).
Lizzie that was some great ratinalization, but essentially – its just that. Your idea has nothing to do with what the Bible actually says! Also, I mean...you can dispute it, or disagree – it really is your perogative, but the Bible was written by God – as revealed to the writers. So when you try to discourse who God is, apart from who He says He is – you sort of run into accuracy trouble, pretty quick!
Sorry, "rationalization" – I should proof read before I post!
At the end of the day, men have neither a heaven or hell to put anyone in. This is really between each individual and their maker. He is true to his Word and arguing anything more or less is a waste of all of our time. I find that most GLBT know exactly what the Word states about their choice, and that is exactly what it is 'a choice'. It's amazing how much power people attempt to take away from the God the Father, church and His Word. God bless us all and may we make a decision that allows us not to spend eternity in hell.
PS I loved the use of I Tim 2 to shut down the woman pastor. Stop taking scriptures out of context, please.
I have just one question: when did you choose to be straight?
Tersa said "PS I loved the use of I Tim 2 to shut down the woman pastor. Stop taking scriptures out of context, please."
Jimmie Lee says: It seems a lot of people here are 'at face value' bible readers. They don't appear to be concerned with context, unfortunately.
I will make you a deal, I will choose to be straight, when you make women have broader shoulders, facial hair and like football. Thanks.
Catholics and Baptists are far more dangerous to society than gays ever will be
As a straight male,I cant think of a single negative way that gay people have affected me
I also cant count the numerous times religious types have ranted and yelled about the things they "dont approve of"
I just let those people blab on and on until they notice Im not paying any attention
go to the decadence parade in NOLA... you might be shocked..
If he is a straight man, why would he go? You're telling him to go for shock value? Why? He just said no one gay has affected him. You're intentionally trying to cause trouble. Typical.
i dont think so go to the middleeast and push your agenda then come back and tell me. Oops you want come back they execute gays. sorry.
I think you hit the most important spot- love me a little less and love yourself a little more. If I hear, "I love you, I just don't love your sin." one more time I will puke. People pick and choose which obscure Biblical passage they will hold up as "God's Law" while ignoring the rest... if I am going to hell for loving another woman, I will see you there for all of YOUR failures to uphold the whole of the "law."
"People are going to shack up anyway, Mike P."
But society doesn't need to encourage gays to shack up by providing them social and economic benefits. After all, what you subsidize you get more of.
MIke P: "But society doesn't need to encourage gays to shack up by providing them social and economic benefits. After all, what you subsidize you get more of."
JiMMie Lee: Then gays should be allowed to marry, if that's how you feel about it.
...and that would be subsidized by every tax paying American... you just made his point
...and that would be subsidized by every tax paying American... you just made his point.
I am not in opposition to that. He is. Isn't marriage subsidized by every tax paying American?
I agree with you in one point – what we subsidize, we get more of. Look at how religious groups are trying to take over the country. They're subsidized with our tax dollars, and they're causing all this hate and discontent.
Tax property, businesses, and salaries of all religious organizations, so the government doesn't have to make up the difference by taking more money from the rest of us!
"Just because a man and woman can have children doesn't mean that another couple (ie. a gay couple or a straight couple who is unable to have children) who does not have children is abnormal in a negative sense."
No, but the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is abnormal, because our desire is based in that biological wiring to have children, and same-gender desires indicates something is miswired.
"People will continue to have children even in a world where gay people are allowed to love their partner just like you are allowed to love your partner."
I don't agree that the love is the same. Loving someone is wanting the best for someone, and wanting the best for someone includes wanting that person to be straight rather than gay. So a person who desires a gay relationship must necessarily want the object of his/her desire to be and stay gay, and that's not wanting the best for that person - that's not loving your neighbor as yourself (since you wouldn't want to be gay yourself, assuming you're in your right mind). And binding that person in a gay marriage and essentially socially obligating that person to stay in an abnormal state is even worse.
"Abnormal" is morally meaningless. Geniuses are abnormal because they have IQs that deviate from the statistical norm. So what?
That is exactly one of my points. Abnormal is not exclusively a negative term. It can simply refer to that which does not happen frequently or most ofen.
Ps. Please forgive my misspelled words. I am not fond of doing that. LOL.
Mike P, if you were gay and okay with it and you sought someone to settle down with in a monogamous relationship or even if you didn't, loving thy neighbor as thyself would mean for you, in present tense, to treat any gay person like you would want to be treated if you were them in their gay shoes. The "as thysef" of love thy neighbor always seems to get forgotten when spoken of. Your version of love thy neighbor as thself is more like the Jews believing everyone had to be a Jew in order for God to accept them. That's not love. That's just wanting others to be like you.
Throughout nature there are individuals who choose not to have children or desire not to – and they are of GREAT use to the children of the world because they are able to spend time helping others since they do not have children to use every moment of their day. NO mis-wiring there. The world is over-populated and their are children EVERYWHERE with NOBODY. Good if some do not procreate so they can help out. Besides plenty of gays desire to have children – and they DO. Who is anybody to say that God mis-wired someone? Do you think God is stupid? I don't think so. There are gays all over the world, doing good, helping others. I think God knew just what needed to be done. Gays are here for good purpose.
3) If you are a woman pastor, you have already demonstrated by your ignorance or refusal to accept 1 Tim 2:12's prohibition against woman pastors that you really don't care what God says about anything, and you are willing to ignore any of his spelled-out commandments so long as doing so fulfills you, which is exactly the opposite of being a God-honoring minister. If you want to impress me, step down and divorce - the Bible does allow for divorce in cases of fornication, which your gay relationship obviously comprises.
God gave you a bible, and then he gave you a brain. We do not live in the ancient desert, herding our goats. We use our brains to deal productively and lovingly with the times we are in – not by hating others or trying to hurt them. Jesus was and is love, not hate, and that is the first truth. Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself. We are ALL neighbors.
Mike P, why does she have to impress you? I'm sure she does not seek to impress you. Besides, just because you are a biblical literalist doesn't mean other Christians are. There are people who consider context rather than simply taking texts at face value. Are you aware of the ramifications if you took every single text literally at face value. I doubt that God cares about the gender of the person who speaks and teaches love. The message is still the same no matter whose mouth it comes out of. Consider 1 Samuel 16:7.
I have to assume that Mike P doesn't eat any animals with split hooves or scavengers, nor does he let his daughters wear braids. His wife can't possibly have a gold wedding band and they must celebrate Passover. I mean OBVIOUSLY, these are all things in the Bible as well. So you must follow them, right?
2a3) ...as it warps the social order by warping marriage and the family.
OMG...I just figured out what the problem was. The letter "T" follow by "I" follow by "T" is not allowed, which means that words like ins[not allowed]ution are not allowed! STUPID!
2a2) ...the phenomenon doesn't so much destroy individuals...
2a1) Although according to the Center for Disease Control, one in five gay men have the you-know-what virus as opposed to one in a thousand of everyone else combined....
But lesbians in monogamous relationships have one of the lowest infection rates. What does that do to your argument?
(Taps microphone: Is this thing even on? Tried to post several times now, not getting through.)
For some reason CNN is filtering my comments, so I'm going to try to post a portion at a time and see where the problem portion is:
1) Gays are indeed "intrinsically disordered." Just because this fact might offend people or wrongly be used as a bludgeon on people doesn't mean it isn't true. Men are built to have relations with women, and women are built to have relations with men - this fact is proven out in that only a man and a woman can make a baby: this tells us both what normal is and what marriage should be. That some people want to have relations with the same gender indicates disorder, and disorder should not be enshrined as marriage.
Just because a man and woman can have children doesn't mean that another couple (ie. a gay couple or a straight couple who is unable to have children) who does not have children is abnormal in a negative sense. If you want to go biblical, the bible addresses eunuchs who could not have children and it says that they (ie eunuchs) will be given a place and a name that is better than sons and daughters. They will be given a name that shall not be cut off. Although this is old testament, the point I'm making, Mike P., is that having children isn't the end all and be all of human existence. People will continue to have children even in a world where gay people are allowed to love their partner just like you are allowed to love your partner.
First point got through okay. Let's work on the second point. Will have to split it into lines because it's still not getting through. (Wish CNN would *tell* you what it doesn't like!)
2b) We are now raising our children in a world that is telling them everyone in their class, boy and girl alike, is a potential mate and encouraging them to explore both sides of the fence. That's an example of a sick society yearning to make itself sicker. What we should be pursuing is a perfect world, and a perfect world would be a one-hundred-percent straight world. We will never get to that perfect world if we make it just as beneficial for two gays to shack up as for a straight couple to shack up.
People are going to shack up anyway, Mike P.
Maybe they're filtering you because you have nothing useful to add? We get your point. YOU think being gay is a choice. YOU think being gay is an illness. YOU are uncomfortable with gay people. YOU are an idiot. And WE have heard it all before. Just because your simple mind follows (quite literally) a sacred text that has been altered by others just like YOU in the past does not mean we have to agree. If you would just live your life and stop babbling on about your delusions we would all be better off. I'm not worried about gay people (unless people like you start trying to impose yourself even more into the private lives of others) and I'm just not that worried about you...I mean I'm concerned about your illness, but it's none of my business really.
They will get sooo brazen they will start raping little boys they will have no limits and the law will say the H O M O S will have the right to rape little boys at will.
Please feel free to pull your head out of the sand at any time. Gay people are no more apt to be pedophiles than straight people are. Grow up!!!!
Wow, such an ignorant comment. Have you watched the news lately. All we see are married and single straight men raping little boy's. What planet are you from?
Beautiful article and unfortunately I dont think everyone who read it quite got it (#Gabrielle). Anyone who speaks verses from the bible and uses it as a way of judging or condeming another is a hypocrite. When did a person of any faith, no matter what their role in the church is, get the right to speak for God and pass judgement in God's place? The world would be a better place if we could all learn to love people for who they are and not for who we want them to be.
When do people 'in the pulpit' get to ignore the parts of the Bible they don't like? The Bible is painfully clear on many behaviors not acceptable to God. If the Bible is the word of God, it specifically passes It's own judgement – don't shoot the messenger. I do wonder what other things this 'pastor' omits...is every action permissable as long as we love each other?
I don't have that particular translation in my collection...
nwatcher, there are things in the bible that are no longer applicable under the Law Of Christ: love thy neighbor as thyself. There is a reason it's referred to as the law of liberty (freedom). As Paul said, "...All things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient.." That means, we can do whatever we want just as long as we do not violate and mistreat our neighbor. Those things that control us are not good for us despite the fact that we have the freedom to do them within the guidelines of the Law Of Christ. Many gays live happy, productive lives loving their neighbor. They are not in violation of Christ's Law.
Simply, THANK YOU.
Thank you for the article. I believe you have the exact points. I would like to see the religious "right" spend more time loving themselves and a lot less time condemning the LGBT community. I sincerely appreciate your taking the time and perspective to share this article and POV. Thank you as well to CNN for making this available to the public and the digital generations. God bless you and your family.
There's a slow but definite shift in Christian communities about LGBT people, which is good – especially since about 90% of the anti-Gay hysteria is coming from the Religious Right. I am glad for examples like Candace and her church being a welcoming place for Gays and Lesbians who can't find a place anywhere else with the freedom to worship 'in spirit and in truth'.
But I think it's too little, too late. There are still too many CINOs ('Christian-in-Name-Only) who scream 'hate hate hate!' from every corner – and I can't imagine how many Gays and Lesbians who, having been driven from their places of worship, their homes, their families, by this ideology of intolerance, will never step foot in another church, regardless. I should know – I'm one of them.
I don't believe in 'an eye for an eye' – but at this point in my life, after so much abuse and hateful rage pointed at me and those I love by 'compassionate Christians' I can't help but smile at the thought of the Final Judgement (assuming that God even exists and Revelation is at all accurate) and how the 'Christians' who today proudly spew such lies, hate and rage at me will stand trembling before the Judgement Seat, expecting to hear 'Well done, good and faithful servant' and instead hearing 'Depart from me you evil-doer, for I never knew you!'
Christian "Love" regarding gay people- 101 http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/btb/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/nom-solution-2.jpg
Why do I get the feeling the anti-gay people here either don't read the article, or skim over it will rage and disgust in their heart? Something tells me they don't know any gay folks. Just a hunch.
1. Know quite a few gay people
2. Read the whole article
3. Didn't get angry or disgusted about the aritcle – just when accused of being angry and disgusted...why is that always the default tag for someone who disagrees with the gay lifestyle for the gay social agenda?
You are so right. Gay is wrong and those who believe otherwise are in big f**king denial.
Yep gay people have an agenda. To turn you gay! All of us are in on it. Be very very afraid.
I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't have some tendencies that concern you and you're just trying to lock up all gays so they don't tempt you lol But sure, you're just concerned about their souls aren't you...
To HWB: Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? LOL.
The Bible makes specific mention of 'alternative' gender (not speaking of event in Sodom in Genesis, that's a little different...). In each instance where these references appear the individuals were spoken of highly or praised. And I like the phrase, "love heals ... never divides", because it's true. I hope readers get the point to that phrase.
What verses speak of an "alternative" gender? I've never heard of that existing in Scripture before.
All you are funny... So I should live my life on earth unhappy becuz of a book men wrote? I went to catholic school and had a crush on my friend in 2rd grade. We dont have a choice. Hate me or not but what I do under my roof is my business and no one elses.
I thought the article was written from a religious – specifically Christian – point of view. I also think it quite obvious that those not adhering to Christianity – or more specifically those who do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God – really have no dog in the fight and these postings should provide nothing more than cheap entertainment for non-Christians.
Those not adhering to Christianity, nwatcher? Not every Christian adheres to Christianity in the same way due to not every Christians sees things exactly the same as the next Christian. I am a Christian and I don't agree with Christians who are opposed to gay marriage.
Sacred Scripture states. "The one who claimsI love God but does not love his brother/sister is a hipocryte." Thus everytime anyone feels better than others they are doing anything but putting their faith into practice. We are not God. Thus we cannot make judgments . Our Loving God's Mercy goes beyond our limited understanding..
God is Love. Hatred cannot come from a Loving Father. That is human selfishness putting labels on God's children. We are all loved by Him He is our Father..
This woman forgets that God hates all sin, not just hers but everyones. After Jesus Christ finds us, it is our responsibility to stop sinning, not to continue in sin.
Please do not call yourself "TheNewLeft" when you are clearly the old right.
The bible clearly states,the wages of sin is death,but the gift of god is everlasting life.god made man and woman for one another and not the other way around.so all gays and lesbians need to stop claiming rights that they dont deserve.sick twisteted digusting pedophiles it is what they are.
Excuse me, but most gay people are NOT pedophiles. Please get your facts straight, and grow up!!!!
If your going to attempt to bring up a valid argument you should learn basic English grammar.
"The bible clearly states, ["]the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is everlasting life[..."]. [G]od made man and woman for one another and not the other way around. [S]o all gays and lesbians need to stop claiming rights that they don[']t deserve. [They] are all sick, [twisted], [disgusting] pedophiles, is what they are.
All of the brackets indicate what I corrected for you.
Tommy your point would've been better taken if you had spelled you're correctly. Quick grammar lesson for you. Your is possessive meaning it shows ownership. Examples: your car, your house, your friend. You're is the contraction for you are and the form you were looking for your first sentence.
I am not gay and I am a christian and to be honest the people who clam to be christians on this blog need to spend some time talking to God and reading the bible! The wonderful God that I know would not want someone to use his name to hurt another person his child! What gives anyone the right to tell someone ware they stand in their relationship and faith in God. I am truly sorry to all the people who have been hurt by peope claiming to be true christians because the wonderful christians I know would never be so hurtful or judgemental of one of Gods children. I hope you can one day be free to live without fear.
There are gay animals explain that one. It is not a choice
There also animals that eat their own babies.
EyesOpen said: "There are gay animals explain that one. It is not a choice."
RP replied to EyesOpen with: "There also animals that eat their own babies."
JiMMie Lee replies to RP: There's a big difference between what EyesOpen said and what you're trying to say, RP. You are seemingly equating a gay person who loves someone of the same gender (in relationship) with someone who takes the life of their fellow man. Not a good argumental point, IMHO.
There also animals that eat their own babies."
To open up the snark as wide as possible: It's a shame your mother wasn't one of them. Sigh...
According to you writer do not blame yourself for a relationship that has meaning it is better than being alone in a person you have common likeness.
Sin is sin a lot of people are hellbound.
You MAY be one of those people, Holly. Are you following the Law or breaking it?
She says "The Kenneth Hutchersons of the world can rant and rave all they want about my “sin,” but my final judge is God ".... But does she understand that when you stand up for that final judgement, it's too late to say, "Opps, I was wrong."
Honestly, I fear most people who say they believe in God than I actually fear God. I find God far more forgiving and loving than his followers ...
How would you know?
To TheNewLeft: Some people believe some Christians are less loving than God who is love because of the way some Christians talk on web pages like this. Their replies are not very loving. That's probably how Candace knows.
shall we continue in sin that grace may abound
How does that make ANY sense.
Anyone else having a hard time commenting?? I keep posting and it doesn't show up...
Hi, Jessica. One of mine didn't post. I didn't bother to retype it though:)
Don't the Christians know...this is exactly what the GLBT and it's "college girl" supporters want. A division among people with faith. They want to make it illegal for you to practice whatever faith you have, what you believe... they want to destroy. All for their own gain, and regardless of what is best for society, especially what is best for children.
If this is what you believe, then you have no idea what gay people want! Who told you this? You can't possibly know any actual gay people. Ugh.
Bull. It's 'Christians-in-Name-Only' like you who have declared open Jihad... I mean a Crusade against LGBT Americans in this country; lying, demonizing, slandering and misrepresenting – all in the name of 'love', of course. Again, BS – we can see right through your self-righteous exterior to the seething hatred needing justification beneath.
I can understand, like women's struggles..about 100 years ago...but this argument today shows just how immature the GLBT is, what dirty tactics and politics it will use to gain "power", and not equality for anyone. The equality fight usually doesn't last this long, and is taken over by a power struggle. Look at recent history...women struggled at one point, and gained rights under the law, today, women are making billions of dollars, and complaining we still live in the stone age where men control everything. If that were true, 87% of the black and white men would be back working in America.
Ignorance is bliss...
When I was a child I wanted to be like Jesus then I met Christians and decided I didn't want to be associated with such hypocrites. Was Jesus a Christian. NO!
You might also consider that in the Creation Story, before Eve was created, the Adam was not a man (ie male). The Adam was more of an "it". Not male nor female. Later, the Adam is separated from a genderless being into a separate male and female being. God, I believe, is not concerned with which gender loves which gender. The point of the Creation Story was to show how humanitiy came into existence and how the male ended up being with the female. I doubt that the point was to show that only a male should be with a female. Again, note that when the Adam was alone, the author of Genesis did not like that the Adam was alone, so to cure his loneliness, animals were created so the Adam would not be alone. Later, it states that still a helpmate was not found for the Adam. God would already know that ahead of time that the animals would not do the trick so to speak. But the story comes across like God didn't get it right when He created the animals for the Adam's loneliness. Putting the Adam in a deep sleep to remove a side of him (the female side) was seemingly plan B after plan A failed.
Sorry, Trinity. My first reponse was supposed to be a response to another poster. My respons to you was to be this: I agree! Jesus was not a Christian, per se. Jesus did not come to establish Christianity as it is. Jesus' religion was more of loving neighbor as self, as he made that the Law. The only Law. This is what pure religion is. And because it is, it matters not if someone is a Christian or whatever else. What matters is loving others as ourselves in action. Anyone can do this and, therefore, ones' religious affiliation matters not Jesus, as I see it. Anyone who loves is of God and God is in them This makes it unnecessary to be a Christian, but necessary to merley be a person who loves others as self (in action). For love is the fulfillment of the Law, which is love thy neighbor as thyself.
Well, no Jesus wasn't a Christian. Christian means "follower of Christ" and was used as a term of derision (see the Book of Acts). Since Jesus didn't follow himself, then He couldn't have been a Christian.
Well, no Jesus wasn't a Christian. Christian means "follower of Christ" and was used as a term of derision (see the Book of Acts). Since Jesus didn't follow himself, then He couldn't have been a Christian.
Is there a verse in Acts that has the term, Christian in it? I will have to read that book. Nonetheless, I believe Jesus is not concerned with what terminlogy a person refers to themeselves as. What matters is are you (the universal you) being a doer of the Law (Romans 2:13)? If you're not, according to Paul, you are not justified before God. It matters not if you've asked Jesus into your heart and believe in his death and resurrection. That is not what saves a person. What must the universal you do to inherit eternal life? You must love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is done simply by loving your neighbor as yourself. When you love your neighbor, you are loving God. Plain and simple. It matters not if you're a Christian, a Scientologist, etc. It simply matters if you are loving your neighbor as yourself (ie. treating others the way you would want to be treated.) Love is the Law Of Christ.
Unfortunately for everyone Jimmie Lee, and I mean this with all sincerity, it matters IMMENSELY whether one is a follower of Christ or not. And the term "Christian" historically, 1st appears in Scripture...Acts 11:26. Thanks for the question! ;)
Oh, and forgive the broken message (I clearly hit enter to fast) but the whole depends on loving God first, then your neighbor, and Scripture is clear that love shown to and for God is through obedience to Him through His word. In other words, one can not claim to love God, and live in an unbroken pattern of either willful, or ignorant disobedience to Him. Once again, thanks for the comments, and questions...
*whole LAW (sheesh...sorry)
Thanks for the Acts verse reference, John. I appreciate that. My point is this: The term Christian is just that: a term. It's irrelevant what a person who follows Jesus calls themselves just as long as they follow Jesus. Your meaning of following Jesus is different than my meaning of following Jesus. To me, following Jesus is simply adhering to what Jesus established as the Law: love thy neighbor as thyself. Romans 2:13 states that those who follow that Law will be justified before God. Therefore, making the requirement of justification to be that one has to be a doer of the Law.
(This is a continuation of my last post to you, John): The law of Moses was separated into two subset groups. Paul knew this, the religious leaders of his day knew this, and Jesus, of course, knew this. We are the ones who are really just finding out about this. One group of the law of Moses were the Jobs. Commands between man and God. These are referred to as works or deeds in Romans 3:20. Note, in that verse, adhering to the deeds of the law of Moses does not save or justify a person. The other group of commands in the law of Moses were known as the Justices. Commands between man and his neighbor. Jesus discared the Jobs (ie. works of the law) and ONLY named the Justices (commands between man and his neighbor) the Law: Love thy neighbor as thyself.
(This is yet another continuation of my reply to you from above, John): Jews found Jesus' declaration that only the Justices to be the Law as unacceptable. Jews were known for their strict adherence to the Jobs of the Torah. Jesus came along and said the Jobs no longer matter. Of course, some thought, "How could the command between man and God be unnecessary?" That's why the lawyer tried to trick Jesus so they could entrap him. Jesus was smart! His statement about loving God with heart, soul, and mind and calling the second commandment (love thy neighbor as self) as being like the first commandment, was to show the Jews that both commandments are equal to one another. If you love your neighbor as self, you ARE loving God. People had to choose who to believe in: The religious leaders or Jesus. Thus, the phrase, "believe in Jesus".
(This is yet another continuation of my reply to you from above, John): Jews found Jesus' declaration that only the Justices to be the Law as unacceptable. Jews were known for their strict adherence to the Jobs of the Torah. Jesus came along and said the Jobs no longer matter. Of course, some thought, "How could the command between man and God be unnecessary?" That's why the lawyer tried to trick Jesus so they could entrap him. Jesus was smart! His statement about loving God with heart, soul, and mind and calling the second commandment (love thy neighbor as self) as being like the first commandment, was to show the Jews that both commandments are equal to one another. If you love your neighbor as self, you ARE loving God.
Hutcherson is correct! Gays and lesbians are just polite terms for being demon-filled! Let go of the demons and repent of your wicked ways!
Imright? You are just wrong. I am sick to death of people boiling down gay people to their private parts!! Will you EVER, EVER get it in your brain that we don't swing from chandeliers, we feel and work and pay taxes and just want to live without hatred just like... Well, maybe not like you. I AM the 99% of productive, normal, monogamous, boring gay people!! And I AM a Christian.
So here is the bottom line–we will all be judged by God in the end–he really would like us to leave that part up to him. When I get questions about my 19 year partnership here is my answer–Years ago I married a wonderful man because I thought that was what I had to do. My parents never even pushed it, but society did.
I took up a few years of a wonderful persons life for all the wrong reasons. So for those of you who spend your time condemning gays and lesbians let me warn you–if you continue, we will sadly keep marrying your sons and daughters, maybe having children with them, and finally causing everyone a lot of pain when it does not work out. All simply because you keep judging.
God wants us to learn the lessons of life, not be his judge. Learn what you can about love, about compassion, and give back as much as you can to this world–not take it away. Fear makes us judge others, true love allows us to love each others differences, respect them, and leave the judgement up to God.
Fiona, you sound like a doer of the Law (Romans 2:13). God bless you. Continue to love others as thyself. You are making God happy by believing in Jesus' true gospel message.
Wow, Fiona – so applying the Word, that was written by God – is my fault that you made the choices you made? That is really twisting the tables, so to speak! If the LG community (judging by the sampling of posts here) feel so judged, and feel so right in their interpretation of scripture – why get upset? Why defend – why not just work though the things in your life like every other person. So you cant "legally" marry – there are work arounds to the legal details (write a will, etc) – you just cant have the sanctification of the rest of society – so what? In working to justify the "lifestyle" – it would seem that you turn right around and demand to be supported by the very societal norms you seek to undermine. As a Bible literalist, it does not offend me that (it would seem most posters here would feel) you say I am wrong – because that has no bearing on what I know to be true, so it doesnt change anything for me. Why is the reverse true for the Gay community? Why does my not accepting your interpretation (as the Author states) force "many" into drugs, depression, etc? If so right – why the guilt?
Alan, you clearly have *no* idea what it's like to be openly hated, reviled, discriminated against and discouraged by society at large. A good analogy would be for you, a Bible 'literalist' moving to a country that is openly hostile to Christianity. Nonetheless, you're free to express your opinion – and we're just as free to call BS on it.
I have to reply to my own post, because Ozmandius didnt leave a way to reply – which is sort of the way it works, but no bother! Your point about being openly hated is a good one – the little catch to your arguement is that the truth is, true believers in Christ do not hate their brother – its actually quite central to the faith! There is no hate in telling someone that they are making bad choices, ect. And the point about being hated as a Christian? It is happening all around the world, and yes – here in the States (look at these posts! LOL). There are Christians going into countriies that despise them, literally want to kill them – why? The Love of Christ compels them, to preach Good News.
On a related note, I'd like to thank the Gideons for changing the grade of paper they use in the bibles they leave in hotel rooms. I haven't had to buy toilet tissue in years, and it's saved quite a bit of money. So the 2,000 year old bible, written by primitive scribes who didn't know what a germ was or how stars form is useful in a day to day context, but not as reading material.
Jesus taught us whosoever is without sin cast the stone. As a Catholic I call on the church leaders to bring justice and healing to the abused!!! Stand up for the right to life, especially among Catholics! Vaya con Dios.
Unfortunately most religious people continuously fail to understand the fundamental fact that that people who don’t follow your religious teachings are not interested in your concept of morality or your impression of the divine.
Sounds like a lot of you skipped over that whole "love thy neighbor" part.
A lot of Christians (and nonChristians are seemingly unaware that the Law of Christ is love thy neighbor, which, to God, translates as loving God.
Read Romans Chapt 1 vs 26 & 27
waste of time
Yes, read Romans chapters 1 and 2, but do so in context.
Hey Mr W, what's the verse in the New Testament that says a woman must remain silent in church with her head covered? Oh, and the verse in the New Testament that says that a woman should not be in positions of leadership – where are they found? And finally, if we have to take those verses from Romans literally, why not these others?
Trust me they don't deserve my kind of love.
Yes they do. The Truth is, Jesus Loves all, equally – and you were made in His image. Because who ever says they "Love God" but hates his brother, does not know love, and does not know God.
Amen to that, Alan. How a person treats their neighbor is, through God's eyes, how they are treating God "Himself".
If God is serious about sin and hell and He says in Romans 1:27 that lesbians and gays are sinners and their accomplice or sympathizers are sinners in verse 32, how then will you say you're a child of God when you know 'God is angry with the wicked (sinners) everyday' Psalms 7:11. Your being a child of God is a false claim. Hell is before you. Repent and be saved. It was late for the rich man who despised Lazarus, it will be late for you when you get to hell after despising God's word.
Yeah, because you're sooooo qualified to judge, right? /eyeroll
What happen to my comment, cnn
Boy, this is a tough subject. First off, let me say; God is not a respector of persons. Secondly, no matter what is written here, there will always be two sides. Let's look at fact. If we say "God made me this way", then the very usage of a creator being used in that phrase, states, that the Gay or Lesbian individual one: acknowledges that there is a God, and secondly; acknowledges that there is written Holy word in the form of a Bible. You cannot have one without the other. Therefore, taking this into context, how do we address the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? Just looking for answers, not argumentation. Thanks.
Was Sodom and Gomorrah taken down because people were gay? (I don't think so) Or because they were wontonly wicked?
In reply to your question, Truth, I say this: Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its citizens violated the Law of loving thy neighbor as self. Ezekiel 16:49-50 supports this. The intended act of harm to Lot and his daughters by the people that surrounded Lot's house is a great example of the mistreatment of one's neighbor. And who is my neighbor? Everyone! The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah treated strangers badly. The had no love and showed no love for others. There was no one righteous there. And, righteous refers to those who treat other equitably. This is my view based my studies. Hope this helps.
gagirl78 said: same thing!!!
JImmie Lee says: Wantonly wicked and being gay are not the same thing. LOL. That's funny.
We r all GOD's creation. HE loves all of us but hates sin that's why JESUS died on Calvary 4 the sin of the world(John 3:16) As Christians, we have 2 show "LOVE" 2 the unsaved ones. We were there 2. Yor sin n my sin mighty be different but sin is a sin until u n I excepted JESUS as our LORD n SAVIOR. We became new creatures, old things have passed away. GOD is the Judge not u or I.....
wow so stupid alot of churches this days are so weird God didnt created us to be gay wow or lesbian ppsh.......
Really, Adrian. You know the mind of God and God's intentions so well?
For anyone ,who thinks that this way of life is what god intended, for us as men and women please read the bible ,until you find the answer, did you find the answer yet????? Keep foolin yourself. Repent for its to late,lets. Call it what it is Ssssssssiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnn.
She thinks she was hard-wired by god to be this way. Why does she think that? I'm not asking for proof of god. I'm asking for proof of the hard-wiring.
Please provide proof that you were "hard-wired" to be straight.
Not particularly surprising or eye-raising. Your accusations of preachers' divisive natures are valid, yet the most important part is, "[I have] come to understand myself as [one] who was hardwired by my creator to [be this way]." Once you've figured that out, you're set for life. I'm happy for you.
It seems that most religions make this exceedingly hard for some people. Actually, I'll amend that: most Western religions do. In my lifetime, though, I don't expect to see any outstanding incidents, just gradual change to a more accepting environment. Good material.
Some 16-year-olds may be wiser than you'd expect.
Stopping after you read the second sentence is how you read the Bible, too, I'm guessing, Brother Brian.
People like Brian are exactly why i, nor my children are Christian. Brian, "you're" the fool.
@anti-Brian good the less f a g g o t s in the church.
You're not a person of God, are you, Yepyep6598?
I'd rather have plenty more gay people in the church than bigots like you, Yepyep.
wow...Yup! That's the XTian in you talking...! Gotta love, when you spew hate when God is all about love. Yes, keep up with the name calling to prove how much of a Christian you are in God's eyes...
I stopped after your second sentence. Your a fool. I read about you in the bible. GOD has the power to destroy like he did Sodom and Gomorrah. Not you. You will burn in HELL unless you change. God Bless you all!
Brian, you are the very reason that this blog post exists. You are not helping anything. 1 Peter 3:15, " but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." Gentleness and Reverence does not mean telling someone they will burn in hell. It means genuinely caring about the well being of another person and treating them with respect, whether or not they are in sin.
I have to agree with brian. God created man for woman and woman for man. Any other partnerships outside of this is sin and you will burn in hell if you continue unto death. The bible clearly states "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life"
Actually, God made a human for a human after all the animals were brought to the Adam and it was discovered that none of the animals met the requirements. But, consider the talking snake;)
You speak of God blessing and at the same time You want people to burn in hell? That's very disturbing. I don't think that the God that I love and who loves me picks and chooses who he wants to bless! Thank God for human beings such as Candace and her church! May God continue to bless you, your wife and Church.
To me, this is what it means to love thy neighbor. Bless you and all those who God sees fit. I will not judge anyone for who they love, but I will keep my distance from those who actively hate in the name of love.
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