by Moni Basu, CNN
(CNN) - Marcie Fisher-Borne carries a power of attorney with her at all times. She has a will but has made videos of her wishes for her children just in case someone contests them.
What if she were to get in a car accident tomorrow? What would happen to her daughter, 4, and her 6-month-old son?
It's not that Fisher-Borne doesn't have a partner - she has been with Chantelle Fisher-Borne for 15 years. It's just that the state of North Carolina does not recognize same-sex marriage. Nor does it allow second-parent adoptions.
That means if Fisher-Borne were no longer capable of taking care of her children - she gave birth to her daughter, and her partner, Chantelle, carried their son - Chantelle Fisher-Borne would not be able to adopt their daughter.
The Fisher-Bornes were one of six couples listed in a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday by the American Civil Liberties Union that seeks to give full parental rights to same-sex couples.
"North Carolina's law denies children the permanency and security of a loving home simply because their parents are lesbian or gay," said Jennifer Rudinger, executive director of the ACLU of North Carolina.
"This is fundamentally wrong," she said. "No parent should have to worry about what will happen to their children if something happens to their partner."
A second-parent adoption is the adoption of a child by a parent in the home who is not married to the legal parent of the child, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. The first parent does not lose his or her rights.
In December 2010, the North Carolina Supreme Court banned such adoptions in the state.
In the lawsuit, the ACLU said a second-parent adoption is the only way that a family in North Carolina with gay or lesbian parents can ensure that both parents have a legal relationship with their child.
"Children who are prevented from having such a legally recognized relationship with both parents suffer numerous deprivations as a result, including exclusion from private health insurance benefits, public health benefits, veterans benefits, disability benefits, social security benefits, life insurance benefits, and workers' compensation, as well as uncertainty about their ability to continue their relationship with their second parent if something should happen to their legal parent," the lawsuit said.
Marcie Fisher-Borne recalled when she gave birth to her daughter. She was not even three hours old when a nurse at the hospital began questioning Chantelle's parental rights.
"We were treated as if our family was less than other families during what should have been one of the happiest occasions of our lives," Marcie Fisher-Borne said. "We don't ever want there to be any question as to who should care for our children. If something were to happen to either one of us, it could tear our family apart."
The lawsuit filed Wednesday argues that it is unfair that the state considers adoption petitions made by heterosexual stepparents on the merits of each case but will not do the same for same-sex couples because they cannot be legally married.
"Second-parent adoptions should be made on a case-by-case basis," said Chris Brooks, legal director of the ACLU in North Carolina.
Opponents of same-sex marriage don't see it that way.
"We believe it's entirely legitimate for a state to give preference to married couples in adoption over unmarried couples," said Peter Sprigg, senior fellow for policy studies at the Washington-based Family Research Council.
"Children do better when they are raised by married parents than they do when they are raised by cohabitating parents," he said.
Same-sex marriage has long been outlawed in North Carolina, and in May, voters approved a referendum that made the ban a constitutional amendment.
In some cases in the state, a child could be taken out of the only home he or she has known if the legal parent dies, Brooks said.
Leigh Smith and Crystal Hendrix are also named as plaintiffs in the lawsuit.
The couple has been together for more than seven years. They have a 7-month-old child.
Hendrix gave birth; Smith stays at home to care for their child. The two women said they fear the consequences of Smith not being recognized as a legal parent.
"Ms. Hendrix's parents do not accept Ms. Smith, and do not recognize her as (their child's) second parent," the lawsuit said. "As a result, both Ms. Smith and Ms. Hendrix are concerned that if Ms. Hendrix were to die or become incapacitated, her parents would attempt to interfere with Ms. Smith's custody (of the child)."
They are hoping their lawsuit will help change the situation.
I would rather have a father and mother, 2 mothers or 2 fathers just seems wrong imo.
I would agree having both a father and a mother would be the best scenario.
.....and better than a single, divorced mother???
If you are concerned about children growing up without married parents, go into the ghettos, slums and schools, gather all the children of single parents and find parents for them!
Honestly, children growing up with two adults that love them is wonderful. If one of those adults die, how can you honestly believe it's better to rip them out of their remaining parent's arms?
A child deserves to role model from a mother and a father Ask the black community how those fatherless families are working out...The wants of the adults must be second to welfare of the child.
LGBT are it seems selfish and only care about their agenda, and not the impact on children...Richard Dawson stated that raising a child in a religion is a form of child abuse. If we accept that logic, then raising (i.e., indoctrinating) a child in the LGBT lifestyle is also child-abuse.
LGBT - Ignornant, biased, and pro child-abuse
Careful Johnny. People who are not tolerant make God very angry...
Choosing to rais a child, especially one not your own, is not an act of selfishness. Quite the opposite.
How many children have you adopted?
When a minority makes laws the rest cant live with, people overthrow their government.
What can't you "live with"? A child having TWo legal parents?
Yet you're OK with the majority making a law that oppresses the rights of the minority? And how is it you can't live with two people you don't know living their lives as they see fit?
Baptism is not regulated by the government. Marriage never should have been either.
Abolish government marriage entirely and offer Civil Unions for everybody in the legal realm
and marriage in your place of worship. Problem solved.
Man shall not lay with man. Which also means woman shall not lay with woman. Problem sovled. Man shall lay with woman.
"Lie," not "lay."
That's if you accept the bible as the true, inspired word of God, which I don't.
Who said that Stephen King or Tom Clancey. Now wait that other big book of fiction.
It's funny when one person calls another person a stupid Liberal, and another a Crazy Conservative.
Here in Canada you are all Radical Right wing. your left is as far right as we go.
I am SO ready to defect to Canada!
I think these "Christians" who want to forbid gay adoption should take a trip to a third world orphanage and see the conditions the kids are living in now. Sleeping six to a bed with no blankets, ribs practically poking through their skin, hair falling out because they're so malnourished.
Do you think that's what Jesus wants for these children?
They can't adopt because they can't marry
Maybe if everyone was given equal rights to marry this issue wouldn't be all over the news and you wouldn't feel like it was "forced in your face".
how is anything here being FORCED into your face? you can choose to read the article or not. it is your choice. these people are fighting for what they think is right and in the best interests of the children they love. how does that harm you? wait, let me answer that for you. it DOESN'T harm you. you are just a bigoted, narrow minded anti-American conservative. I apologize to those who recognize the redundancies in that last staement.
So, bill,what you are saying is that they should not have the same rights?
Jake, I agree except to say that I think it's more a horrible misapplication of mathematics. Other variables exist which haven't been addressed.
My kids have more fun playing on a sunny day.
Kids having fun is good.
If all days were sunny, my kids would have more fun.
If we get rid of the rain, more days will be sunny.
Getting rid of the rain is a good thing.
What I've intentionally ignored is that without rain, before long, we will run out of food. Starving kids aren't happy. Neither are dead kids.
It is important to deal with all the variables which clearly wasn't done.
Hugo, I also remind them of this passage. "The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike." Kinda debunks a lot of what they claim.
H o m o s e x u a l i t y is considered a normal and unchangeable part of human s e x u a l i t y by the following medical and mental health associations: The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the Canadian Psychological Association, and the National Association of Social Workers.
The hetero community has messed up child rearing so much, might as well give the gay community a chance. They certainly can't do any worse and might do better. Artificial insemination has taken away the necessity for one to be straight to have children. And, it would seem that bigotry is a greater illness than anyone's se x ual orientation ever could be.
Amen... And even better yet... Not having any parent(s) at all.
Actually, they do differ. They're more intelligent, better-adjusted, more tolerant, and more likely to succeed. But shh. We can't offend the delicate Christian fundamentalists by stating the plain facts.
If children do better with married parents than with cohabitating parents, that's a really great argument why you should let the gay people get married...so they will be better parents to their children.
Not to mention...I can say with 100% certainty that my kids, never ONCE while they were growing up, asked if their father and I were married. Nor did they ever ask to examine our marriage license.
Kids could give a crap less if the people that they know as their parents are married. What they DO care about is that they are loved, cared for and provided with a sense of security and stability.
the religious believers in christianity in this country are absolutely no different than the whacky backward thinking religious groups that roam the middle east and asia. They are simply dangerous group thinkers supporting each others mythical beliefs void of tolerance for those that do not drink their koolaid.
"backward thinking religious groups that roam the middle east and asia." - "void of tolerance"
That has to be the joke of the day.
Agreed. Brainless Fundamentalism is the same everywhere in the world. A religious excuse for controlling the personal lives of your neighbors. If God doesn't like your neighbors, He can handle the problem without our help.
For most followers religion equals an excuse not to use reason. It's laziness in its purest form.
i think it will harm children and confuse them.
Speaking of confused, I am. What do you mean by "it?"
I can think of two very different and competing definitions. Both seems equally likely to me (the reader).
1. Allowing the partner to adopt will confuse the children.
2. Taking the children away from the surviving partner will confuse the children.
Please don't abuse pronouns. Readers get confused.
LOL...good one Hugo. =)
Why do you take the children down a path that leads away from the Heavenly Father and His wise counsel?
O' Daughter of Babylon...As you have forsaken the Father, so shall you be forsaken by Him. You have fallen, and you will be dethroned for you are no queen. Repent!
Jesus Blesses Little Children
Mark 10 - "13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” 16 And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them."
And your point is?
Please don't try to forbid marriage (and the right to raise children) amongst those our Lord God created gay...
1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart
from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings
of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are
seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God
created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know
the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be
rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the
word of God and prayer.
John, what is your point? I get that your believe in God. But what do you believe should be done in this case and why? (Is confusing your neighbor somehow an example of loving your neighbor?)
I can think of two points that you might be making and they points disagree with each other.
1. The children living with 2 adult women is somehow taking them away from God's path.
2. Separating the children from the surviving woman is somehow taking them away from God's path.
Which is one do you mean or do you mean something else?
Johnnie Boy: Why do you continue to use edited, tranlated iron age hearsay to establish your morality?
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. We live in a secular society. Our laws are not based on anybody's religion.
I bet you think you're a reincarnation of John the Baptist. That would make you a Buddhist.
Because John...if you are Christian...you are really nothing more than a Pagan with slightly different window dressing and a crapload more guilt.
Your entire religion is built upon the foundation it unabashedly stole and perverted from Paganism. Please explain to me why I should, therefore, take ethics and morality lessons from an organized band of thieves who murdered and tortured the very people that they stole from originally in order to promote their own twisted ideology?
As for we Pagans...it matters not to us WHO a person loves so long as they love SOMEONE. Because when one lacks the capacity, or is denied the ability, to connect with another on that level, to that depth, and to express themselves in that way....
That's when you wake up one morning to find them on CNN Headline News with dead bodies and facing down a SWAT team.
great minds think alike.. however this country is full of not-so-great minds.
So says your "right-wing" media sources. Can't folks use some common sense here and drop the politics. Everyone, including the GLBT community, deserves to be treated with respect and honor. There are rules in this inherent in any relationship-based issue of rights, such as age of consent.
I had always had a positive impression of North Carolin–until recently. North Carolina increasingly looks more backward than Mississippi.
Ron my partner and I moved to Georgia from Michigan 7 years ago. We've gotten used to this phrase..........."Welcome to the south".
Copying our failed governor's comments, I see?? YOU are more backwards than Mississippi. If you are referring to the recent vote we had affirming normal, natural marriage between male and female, then maybe you should rant about the other 30 states that have passed the exact same thing. Is California as backwards as Mississippi?
Typical liberal, ignorant of the issues. Go get some education.
Martha, i assume you have the facts to support this quote in the article since i am sure you would never run your trap without the facts.
"Children do better when they are raised by married parents than they do when they are raised by cohabitating parents," he said." i will wait patiently on your factual reply. and please leave mythical religious beliefs out of your response.
the point here Martha, is that NC has always been on the wrong side of history with every major issue, including your rifht to vote. NC should start taking the lead instead of being behind the eight ball, time and time again. Leadership takes courage, hatred requires cowardice.
Peter Sprigg's comment is so ridiculous. Giving preference to married couples over cohabitating couples might be reasonable – but that's not what you're doing! That has NOTHING to do with second-partner adoption! What married couple is being preferred here?
You do realize that "nature" involves all the women raising the children and the men going off to hunt for food, right? Geez.
Let's not let logic get in the way of some good ol' fashioned bigotry!
I know someone who's been dealing with this very thing–she is not the "parent" of her children because they were adopted by her partner as a "single mother." But she's been in court lately, trying to get herself declared their legal guardian. I mean, these two women are the only parents these kids have known, at least since they were 1 or 2 or something.
Of course, I suspect this is one reason some people oppose gay marriage, too–allowing them to marry automagically allows them to adopt, and a lot of people think that's going to corrupt children...something about the gay agenda, I'm not clear on that point. A friend of mine once told me he gets $20 for everyone he signs up, but he may have been pulling my leg. -_-
Who are the deviants – there were no deviants mentioned in the article.
Oh please – 400 years ago children were raised differently than today. If you were wealthy, or merchant class your children were commonly sent away to other great households to be raised. Poorer children were raised by family members, neighbors or just left to survive or not. This idea that a nuclear family of Mom, Dad, and two kids are the best is such nonsense. It is a recent development, and cannot be held up as the best or only way to raise a child.
Sing it. :)
With a huge majority of under-30s supporting gay rights and a huge majority of over-60s not supporting gay rights, time will take care of this brand of bigotry.
AMEN. This bigotry along with Slavery, Segregation, Subjugation of Woman will soon be history.
Sure, but why should we have to wait?
Don't count on it. What you call "bigotry," most people call common sense. Young people always grow more conservative with age and there is no way to predict how the country will feel about these issues in the future. I am 22 and know that I will never support them, so clearly there are those of us who do not agree.
It will fail just as it has always failed, and when it does those who insist on imposing their moral code on others will find a new outlet for their ire....next group that minds it's own business but somehow offends the noisy religious right will probably be people with tatoos. Desecrating the temple of God and all that.
See, we can be off the rocker nuts too.
More evidence that you Southerners remain uneducated and ignorant about the facts of US history. So sad.
The younger people are calling it bigotry. And, as the older folks die out, younger people are going to make policy in this country.
Young people may often grow more conservative as time goes on. That is a generality though, and I don't think it applies to this case. A young straight person who has gay friends or can even empathize with the discrimination faced by gays is probably not going to magically develop your level of hatred and intolerance just because they get older.
Except for one glaringly obvious difference. Bigots are always trying to stop deviants from having any rights whatsoever.
It is not a choice. People are born this way. Stop hating. Free Jerry Sandusky.
Jerry Sandusky is a conservative, Republican, Christian... Nice try, though.
Jerry Sandusy isn't gay, he's a pedophile. A man who prefers children. Much different than two consenting adults!!
I agree being a bigot is a deviant behavior.
deviants are by definition opposed to the norm in some way. Unfortunately bigotry is normalized in some cases and goes undetected as deviant behaviour. I agree though, they SHOULD go hand in hand.
I'm an American who lives in New Brunswick now and find the lack of relative insanity... refreshing.
"Making" a child does not necessarily make you a parent. You have to earn that right. My father is my father because he raised me and supported me. Parent, whether man/man or woman/man etc., parents are parents. Those who choose to love you, raise you, and support you no matter what is what makes a good parent.
verb [ trans. ] [often as n. ] ( parenting)
be or act as a mother or father to (someone) : the warmth and attention that are the hallmarks of good parenting.
Oh yes, because there are never kids of straight parents who don't turn out so well.
Having a biological mom and biological dad in the home raising their children might be the best overall parenting arrangement. But, it is far from the normal anymore. Aside from gays, what about single parents? Divorced? Blended families? I would argue that ALL familes deserve equal protection, regardless of what outsiders might prefer or believe. This is also a right to provacy issue.
Actually, with the much shorter life span of most people, one or both parents would be dead before their children reached "maturity." Blended and single parent families were much more prevalent than we think. This is much less an experiment than we think it is, but rather reflects how many people grew up in past generations.
dofacc: huh? not sure where the life span stuff came from...
Some research shows that children of gay and lesbian couples actually do better in school. Both in grades, and having lower rates of discipline problems.
They certainly dress better. Sorry couldn't resist.
We had our naysayers in Canada and some religious bigots but all the arguments have been proven incorrect. It's lovely now because IF and I say IF because I equal adoption and equal marriage are really not a topic up here anymore, but IF someone was to try and say any of the garbage about these issues in Canada we simply sit back and laugh and say prove it. They can't of course because it doesn't exist except in their tiny minds.
Why is that exactly?
I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion.
Robert, sure if you are addressing me, but I think we all know the answer. It has to do with media, education and propaganda.
Nope, that was for Bill. I'm curious as to how one can arrive at his conclusions...
And be sane.
Why is it that some Americans seem to have trouble understanding that a whole world existes beyond their borders. That the U.S. is NOT experimenting with adoption or equal marriage. It exists already in places, now try to imagine this, in places OUTSIDE the U.S. It works fine. No issues. No problems. All your fear is in your mind.
Nat, most Americans have never left their state, much less the country as I have. I was born and raised in Europe by American parents (Dad was in the military) and have visited, worked in over 40 countries. I have seen it all. The lies perpertrated by the religious leaders, (so called christians) are in it for the money. Controversy = money. NOM was exposed and they even admitted that the memo was theirs. NOM strategy in the memo, "drive a wedge between the latinos and blacks against the gays." just google NOM Exposed. I have an education of cultural diversity, that I can never replace with a book education.
Scary how often those two go hand in hand.
Exactly, and I challenge anyone to dare to compare the degree of social ills in Canada to those in the United States.
it's no experiment, gay couples have been adopting and raising well balanced children for years. but I'm sure according to your demented views the children are better off rotting in some orphanage or end up in the streets. I mean your kind doesn't care about kids after they're born anyway.
"We believe it's entirely legitimate for a state to give preference to married couples in adoption over unmarried couples,"
Then let them get married. Problem solved.
logic and law don't go hand in hand.
The so-called "evidence" presented by Peter Sprigg is deeply flawed and not supported by any legitimate research. The Family Research Council is little more than a hate group.
I know that I shouldn't argue with idiots like Peter Sprigg but I can't help it. It is similar to seeing a three -headed stuffed animal at the NC State Fair and you just wonder, what the hell is that thing? It is Peter Sprigg.
Definitely a Christian. No one else would treat someone that terribly.
And all in the name of God. And they wonder why people are fleeing their religion.
By casting all Christians in the same mold, you're just as bad as Sprigg and the rest of the Family Research Council. Most Christians DO NOT support him or his organization!
BermudaBound – Nope, that 'oh we're not all like that' doesn't work anymore... especially when it's whispered on internet forums with no actual action taken. Want us to believe that 'not all Christians are the same'? Then you'd better get out and PUBLICLY denounce these frauds.
Then start acting on your outrage. The longer true loving Christians stay silent and allow these idiots to carry the banner for all, then the rest of us will keep seeing one voice.
Love the comment from the Family Research Council ... they are a hate group, plain and simple.
Hate group... Christian group. Same thing.
I don't believe for a minute that "Children do better when they are raised by married parents than they do when they are raised by cohabitating parents," A married partner can abandon a family just as quick as one who's cohabitating. Adoptions should be about what is best for the child in terms of the ability to raise that child to adulthood. Just because you're raised or adopted by someone's gay partner or family member doesn't mean you're going to turn gay. Jeez..duh.
Why are the Religious people so afraid of gay marriage.. I remember back when some states were first talking about gay marriage ,The religious people were running scared and Our elected officers were running to home to their respective states and passing these laws against gay marriage.. I also remember Our House of Representatives and Senate passing the DOMA. It was passed out of fear.. So i ask again Why are the Religious people so scared of gay people.. When it seems that they have no problems with people getting divorced or adultery.
People need to stop treating gay people like their rights don't matter.. I for one is tired of hearing about teenagers who are kicked out their homes because of their s e x ual preferences. Parents who kick their children out because of their orientation should be charged with some crime.. People who bully gay kids or adults should be charged.. If the bullying causes a gay child or adult commit suicide then they should be charged with a crime .. We have laws against Discrimination and it should be enforced. States who look the other way when it comes to straight on gay crime should be held accountable for the lack of enforcing the laws since discrimination is against the law.
We live in a country where we claim equality and freedoms for its citizens. But we as a country have this bad habit that we only want equality for the majority and minorities have to fight for decades, sometimes with bloodshed, simply to have equal footing.
Black Americans – Probably the single biggest example of inequality in our country’s history. Blacks in our nation have had to fight for every single freedom that they have been afforded, and they are fighting against the very people that claim equality and freedom for all. They had to fight against slavery, the right to vote, segregation, etc… They are still fighting today for equal opportunities because there are still people in our country that believe the color of someone’s skin defines who they are.
What really sucks is that I am from NC and can attest that the vast majority of people I know support gay marriage. Its just when you get to the rural areas that people become backwards. I hate the the state is giving such a bad impression. Go to Charlotte, Wilmington, Asheville, or Raleigh/Durham and you would be surprised how accepting people are of one another (OK, maybe not Charlotte). Of the Southern states, NC is the most cosmopolitan; however, this stuff only serves to make us look like backwater hillbillys. Thanks a lot for the regression, NC legislature.
I know Some people like you disagree with this law.. When i made my comment about North Carolina i was referring to the ones that uses their religion.. Hope i am making sense.
Its completely understood, I just hate to see NC go down this road...
I'm also from NC and I'm in the same situation. Almost everyone I know was against Amendment 1. I've also found that the majority of college educated people were against it as well.
yes, but they need to vote. voting is supporting. actions speak louder than words. The polls show a majority of Americans support gay marriage, but when the voting is over.....
I voted against Amendment 1 in NC. I believe gay people have the right to be MISERABLE, just like every other married person in this state.
As the education level rises, so does acceptance of other cultures. Pretty telling considering some of the comments here...
Don't forget Greensboro!
What's with the "maybe not Charlotte?" If you had looked at the amendment one poll results, you would have seen that Mecklenburg county, where Charlotte is located, voted against amendment one. I live in Charlotte, and it is not backwoods...it's actually mostly filled with young, well-educated, business-people. There are of course still religious nuts like there are everywhere, but not enough of them to override the more socially liberal residents.
Rural areas = uneducated. The right wing extremists prey on these folks. They know that they no longer have a chance with the well educated, informed folks. The problem is, we have to get these younger folks to the polls and emphasize that every vote counts. If you don't vote, then you don't have the right to complain. Get out and Vote! Make a difference.
Well said. Gays and children don't match. What gays do among gays is their business but when children are involved is everyone's business. However this case is special as both children are biological (or sort of) children of these people
I am gay and have a child. She is smart, wonderful, loved and accepted at both home and in the community. Being gay doesn't mean you can't raise and care for a child. That assumption is ignorant and untrue.
Who makes you the moral authority when it comes to gays and their kids... I bet you teach your children if you have any to be discriminating and bullies.
Not me. But I know others that do. There will always be lots of them. And here is the problem: these children will be bullied and will suffer for something that they are not guilty.
Teaching children to hate in the name of god is child abuse indeed. But it's also not religion, at least not christian religion.
Son – Not Christian religion?? You can't be clueless enough to believe that the hatred of gays in America isn't rooted in Christianity, can you?? Christians teach their kind hatred, intolerance and violence and disguise it as if it comes out of the bible.... Religion, particularly Christianity, is tearing this country apart, and goes against everything our Founding Fathers wanted for this Republic...
Religion brings solace to a world torn apart by.....religion.
Jimmy-Show me proof that gays are ruining marriage? I bet you Love Kim Kardashian Let me think she was married for 72 days .. Britney Spears was married for 50 hours ... Would you like me to state the statistics for straight marriages... Keep on being delusional.
Love the "Blessed be to all" You do realize thats a Pagan saying? Also, I feel so sorry for your kids.
I'm assuming since you anded your post with "blessed be to all" and your overall hillbilly, backwards biggotry that you are a Christian. You are doing a terrible job of representing your religion. Christian means "little Christ" and I'm pretty sure murderers are more Christlike than you.
The fact that their heads are messed up donesn't mean they don't want to mess up the heads of children... when is enough, enough... ?????
Yes, we need to insulate our children to the point of helplessness. It would be awful if they lived in the real world.
Marriage is defined by the government, not the bible. Sorry but marriage can be between a man and a car. You clearly are so removed from reality and have never been or even seen group homes and how they function. Separation of church and state is one of the most important aspects of our nation, however is it easily forgotten.
"Sorry but marriage can be between a man and a car."
Wrong but nice attempt.
LOL.. actually, he's correct.
I agree that civil marriage should be defined by the government, but marriage is a contract between consenting adults. Objects, animals, children, etc cannot give consent, therefor they are not part of the discussion.
Jimmy, I'm sorry your dad did what he did to you. That's still no reason to hate an entire group of people.
North Carolina. The state that proudly allows first cousins to marry and breed but is against gay couples marrying.
>implying that the country doesn't have more important things to worry about. i feel bad for that poor kid, he/she is going to be tormented in school. who knew you could still adopt kids for the circus
This is my favorite bigot argument. "they will be tormented in school"...
tormented by who? Your kids? Gee, here's a thought. Instead of forcing everyone to be like the bully's parents (you), why not just accept peoople for who they are and seek psychiatric help for your issues instead of projecting them onto others.
Thank for that Robert, he is just the kind of father that would egg his kids on and stand by and enjoy every minute of it. And then they wonder why kids begin to contemplate suicide after years of torment, all in the name of their god. Disgusting.
I have a child and am a gay parent. She is doing very well in school and is loved. I live in a community that celebrates diversity and encourage inclusion of every family and child. The problem is the bullies that are spouting the hate that they hear from adults.
This is really sad. This is another lawsuit filed against the state of NC. I hope and pray there are thousands more lawsuits. There will be many more. Hatred is not FREE! When NC is spending tens of millions on lawsuits instead of where the money should be going they might get the hint that maybe, just maybe, they made a huge mistake, just like segregation, interracial marriages, slavery, ..... When their social programs and schools have to take more cuts to pay for these lawsuits... Gays tax dollars go to pay for their children and social programs, if they can take our money, then we will take away theirs, where it counts! The lawsuits are coming, and in abundance.
The majority the voters in North Carolina have religious Convictions . So they passed this discriminating law because of their religious convictions.. Do the religious people not get that we have Separation of Church and State. and Freedom of Religion. That means everybody has a right to believe or not to believe.. Why Do they discriminate when the bible says love the sinner and not the Sin. I don't see the Religious people coming out against adultery , or divorce when some Religions look down on adultery, and divorce. They only come out against gay marriage.. Can You Hpyocritical
i am sorry for my typos..
Amy – separation of church and state is not how you describe it. Laws throughout this country's history have been based on religion and are still in effect today. Separation of church and state was originally set up so that the State couldnt force you to believe or follow a certain religion or restrict your access to other religions which was the case in England at the time. I think this whole issue has more to do with changing the dynamic of common law relationships then it does gay marriage.
You aren't even close, "Congress shall pass no law..... (religious intent). Many laws were based on the religious beliefs of others and then overturned, lets see, slavery, segragation, interracial marriages, women's suffrage,..... NC was wrong back then and they are wrong now. Let the lawsuits begin and I hope they are in abundance. Let's see if the religions step up to the plate and provide money for the lawyers and court costs that will run in the ten of millions of dollars, or more. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get more than you bargained for. (in abundance)
While I agree with your overall message some of your facts are not correct. A recent study found that an overwhelming majority of North Carolinians did NOT have religious ties or convictions. The problem is that those who do are very active. If a pastor says go out and vote, you can be pretty positive that 99% of his congregation is going to the polls. The crazy Christians get out and vote and those others don't. That's the real problem.
You are corect Vert, these pastors count on the fact that most of their congregation will follow their orders. These people do not have the capacity to think for themselves and the right wing know this, and exploit these people for their own purposes. Sad, but true. Every vote counts in this country. Few will remember, that our national language was decided by one vote, english or german. Think about how this would have affected the outcome of WWII.
It doesn't matter if they have religious convictions. This country has separation of church and state.
This is a dumb argument. Even if it was a heteros€xual couple the surviving biological parent must sign over parental rights for an adoption to be legal. The fact that they are a same s€x couple is not the issue. If they can get the parental consent then I see no reason why they should not be able to adopt.
The problem is that the surviving parent is not biological.
Sally, if you're waiting to see "if North Carolina can get something right" then you will unfortunately have a very, very long wait. This goes for the reset of the backwards southern states as well. Southern states have a history of being on the wrong side of every major issue in the past 250 years.
Why single out the southern states? There are plenty of Northern states with this same issue.
That fact doesn't make this situation any less wrong, but beating up on the southern states to make yourself feel better doesn't help.
I love our country. I just don't particularly care for some of the people.
As Mahatma Ghandi said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Nice addition to the post Charp, I had forgotten what he said. It really makes sense, even today. What a wonderful man he was. The christians would do well to follow his example.
What????? Yale and Harvard picked up and moved?
It's been a while since high school history. Can someone refresh me as to why the North bothered to fight the South in the civil war? We should have just let them secede.
They need to leave those people alone. Let the other parent raise the child. So as not disrupt the family unit and tramatize the child.
They choose to be gay, that is fine. They choose to live in a sate that does not allow two gay people to get married. They choose to have children. Sorry but children are not a right. You choose to have them or adopt them. If the state's laws say things you do not like, move to a different state. This whole made up thing about violating their rights for things they choose is nonsense.
The majority the voters in North Carolina have religious Convictions . So they passed this discriminating law because of their religious convictions.. Do the religious people not get that we have Separation of Church and State. and Freedom of Religion. That means everybody has a right to believe or not to believe.. Why Do they discriminate when the bible says love the sinner and not the Sin. I don't see the Religious people coming out against adultery , or divorce when some Religions look down on adultery, and divorce.
I'm sorry....'They CHOOSE to be gay?" This statement never ceases to amaze me. Let me ask you something....at what point in your life did you entertain the thought of becoming gay, and then chose not to? Do you honestly feel that your being straight is a choice? And say you did have that 'choice', would you make the choice to be part of a group of people who are oppressed, berated, judged, injured and killed? A choice that would limit opportunities and subject themselves to a life of persecution? A CHOICE???? REALLY???
'Don't like it? Move!' Spoken like someone who's never had to make that kind of choice – especially because of discrimination. Classy.
Children do not choose to be born. What we teach them makes all of the difference in society as a whole. Tolerance and acceptance go along way and provide diversity. The real world in which we live, not some made up version based on archaic beliefs that only promote hatred and intolerance.
So let's get down to brass tacks here: if one of them was killed, the child of the dead parent, even if he/she is old enough to comprehend, would be sent to a foster parent instead of being allowed to stay with the surviving mother of the family????
This kind of IDIOCY is why the human race hasn't long to survive on this Earth, not because of gay parents.
In my opinion I feel that any state who base their laws on Religious beliefs is a direct violation of the Separation of Church and State.. I live in Utah the Mormon Capital of world and i disagree with the way they determine laws.. I thought laws were to protect everyone and not just the Religious. So why Don't states keep religion out of it? When We have Freedom of Religion.. That means i can't discriminate against you for believing in God just like you can't discriminate against me because i don't. I find these bans against gay people are discrimination.. We have laws against discrimination why Do the religious people violate it by passing these laws?
You're an idiot. I deliver you a challenge. Gather 10 headlines from the last 60 days that involve the injuring or the killing of a child. I will bet you all that I own that not one of them involved a gay parent. Breeders should tend their own garden before pulling weeds in others.
@Mjames, I doubt this person has ever read the bible, much less studied it as their god commands. Pick and choose, to suit the discussion at hand, ignore the rest. Religous beliefs do not trump anyone's civil rights. Just as history has proven time and time again, it will take the SCOTUS to set things right. In the mean time, NC and the other states will spend millions of dollars defending their beliefs, only to have them discarded for the trash that those beliefs represent.
Mjames– have you ever actually known a child raised by gay parents? I bet not. Their kids come out fine.
1) We won't let you get married because we just kinda don't want to. It's tradition, or whatever.
2) No, you can't adopt your child – why, you won't even commit to your partner by getting married!
At the very least, a biological mother should have the right to name a guardian of her child should she die or become incapacitated. Even if they won't allow adoption, guardianship established in living wills or other wills should always be upheld. Single parents should be taking a stand on this as well. Do they want the state to decide who gets their child? Hospital staff have the right to remove people from a hospital room if it's too crowded, but other than that, they have no right to tell a mother who she can and cannot have in the room with her.
No what is sad is how blind this country has become. The looser our morals get as a nation, the worse we are getting. But we don't see that. ALl we se eis that "I can't do this, and I can't do that" Did you ever think, maybe you shouldn't? Our country was founded on certain principles, but because we think they infringe on what we want to do, they are not right. WAKE UP!!!
We aren't talking about "loose morals", we are talking about family life and parenting – GOOD things.
Nathan – Yeah, this country was founded on the separation of church and state. Thank you for proving the point that these ladies (and everyone else similarly situated) should be able to adopt.
What right Does the Religious Majority have to tell the Minority how to live their lives? It appears that every time gay Marriage comes up the people who are against it can only quote their religious beliefs.. Can They debate this topic without bringing up their religion? They Only site they are against gay marriage. If you believe in the bible then you should believe in all of it.. They should not pick and choose what they want to out of the bible. I thought we were suppose to respect each and treat each other how we want to be treated.. how is being discriminating respectful?
This country WAS created based upon certain principles, including individuals rights and responsibilities. I see absolutely NOTHING about Bible based rules in the Consti.tution.
The way I was raised, it would be immoral to force someone to live the way you want them to. It would be immoral to take a kid away from their parent. It would be immoral to deny one person a right and grant it to another. It would be immoral to attack another person or degrade them because they were different.
I'm with you, Nathan, loose morals are the problem here. The religious right has been forcing their immoral agenda on the rest of America since Carter, and it is leading to the descent of this country. I say we fight back, start taxing those freeloaders, and get this country back to its roots of secular egalitarianism!
They "shouldn't"? Why? Because you and other ignorant bigots are obsessed with what consenting adults do in their bedrooms? You disregard the idea of a kid having two loving parents because you find their "morals" disagreeable. I find your morals abhorrent. Therefore, I forbid *you* from having children. Dang, I wish I was in the majority.
I live in Utah and A woman who is pregnant can legally give her child up for adoption without the father's consent. A Father has 30 days to prove that he is the father.. If he doesn't know that his girlfriend is pregnant. he only has 30 days and if he finds out on 31st day. He is out of luck.
Yeh, but if they are MARRIED and the child isn't his, he still has to pay for its upbringing even if it is proven he's not the father of the child. Nice laws. Women can fool around, but men get no breaks. Then they wonder why some guys kill their wives.
Another example of majority rules, instead of common sense. Anywhere else in this country, only a biological father is responsible for the childs welfare, unless of course he adopts that child. Perfect example of ....
They are not birth parents on both children. get over it. No matter how many lawsuits happen it still doesnt change. Only one woman and sperm. Until the ACLU can change that not rights are violated.
You are missing the point. Isn't it better to have BOTH of the parents raising the child to have the same legal responsibility for the child?
What child suffers with MORE people legally responsible for that child?
I am a step-parent, and proud of it. Your comment is offensive.
Right on KJM.
NC Republicans say "We believe it's entirely legitimate for a state to give preference to married couples in adoption over unmarried couples". First they make gay marriages illegal, then they argue that children are better off with married couples so gay couples can't adopt children. Neat trick!
Question: What rights does a straight step-parent have if the biological parent dies? Does a straight step-parent have to legally adopt the step-child in order to have survivor rights to the child?
straight step-parents generally only have legal rights if they adopt the child. Most of the time straight step-children still have a mother and a father, they're just not together anymore. Children of gay couples only have those parents and they're not really "step-parents".
The beauty of the US is that the citizens of each state get to decide their law. If you don't like said laws that were voted in by a majority of peers, move to another state that allows you to do what you want. If you don't like abortions, move to a state with strict abortion laws. If you don't like gay marriage, move to a state like NC. However, it also works the opposite.
If you don't like gay marrige, don't marry a gay person.
...and the beauty of the U.S. is that if you find a law that prevents your civil rights you can challenge it in court.
Right... so go against how the majority votes to satisfy the few. Remind me of what democracy means again...
NITWIT – What you're forgetting is that first – this country is not a democracy (read the definition). Second – Letting the majority vote on the rights of a minority doesn't work. If it did, we'd likely have slavery in the south still!
I think it was Ben Franklin who said democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner, and that liberty is arming the sheep.
a historic majority voted the Third Reich into power. so can't buy that one
odd this is a problem in North Carolina.. they had no trouble in January 63 turning over 9 children for adoption to a "married" pedophile.
As already pointed out, you don't live in a pure democracy and you should be thankful you don't. Simple majority rule is notoriously bad without entrenched laws to keep it from running wild. Those wonderful little things you call your rights, yeah, in a pure democracy the majority could take them from you at a whim.
Some of us can't just pack up and leave the state if we don't like a few laws. What if these couples both have stable jobs in NC, and in this job economy wouldn't be able to find them elsewhere? Also, just because the "majority of voters" vote one way on something doens't make it legally sound.
I agree. Democracy sucks.
you are right....how do you think the majority in the south would have voted in the 60's on civil rights?
Actually, we don't get to vote on which basic civil and human rights that a majority will allow a minority to have.
That's why we have the Courts – to address such abuses.
The beauty of the United States is that our Civil Rights are not up for majority vote. They are protected by the Const.itution and, if infringed upon, can be enforced by a court of law.
Well, they are supposed to be, anyway, but there's abundant evidence that it doesn't always work this way....
.This is a sad state of affairs when a parent is not allowed to be a parent, legally. Sad stuff. Let's see if North Carolina can get something right and let a mother formally adopt her children.
Maybe the difference is that in this case the second parent is not the biological mother, so they are not denying a mother the right to adopt her child. Mothers don't have to adopt their own children. However in this case, gay right or gay wrong, the children live with and are being raised by two mature good parrents (assumption I don't know them personally) whatever their gender, and it would be a disservice to the children to send them to live with strangers (even if the strangers were related) should the worst happen to the "real" mother. As a grandparent myself, I think the grandparents need to get on board here for the good of their future relationship with their grandchildren, and maybe figure that they might not agree with their daughter's choice of a partner but she is still their daughter, the grandchildren are still their grandchildren, and just love and respect them all.
The female in question has been with and raised children with her partner for the last four years. They have been together for 15 years. So, yes, she is a parent. She may not be a biological parent. But she should be allowed to adopt the child formally regardless because the biological parent wishes her to share the parental responsibilities and legalities. If the same situation was happening with a woman who was with a sterile man who used alternative sperm...the man could be placed on the birth certificate even though he is not a biological parent. Yet, he can formally adopt. Bottom line....these two people chose to raise a family together and therefore should be legally allowed to do so. It is not a fluke they have a family. It was planned!!
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