By Moni Basu and Greg Botelho, CNN
Atlanta (CNN) – The Atlanta Braves are reportedly bringing back a controversial screaming Indian logo in their new design for batting practice caps, unveiled in a blog post on ESPN.
Writer Paul Lukas of Uni Watch, who broke the news of the new cap design, said he got a first look at the hat designs from an "industry source."
He gave a failing grade to the Braves logo featuring a Native American wearing a mohawk and a feather in his hair and belting out a tribal yell.
"Last year the Braves conspicuously avoided using their 'screaming Indian' logo as a sleeve patch on their retro alternate jersey - a welcome move for those of us who oppose the appropriation of Native American imagery in sports," Lukas wrote. "Unfortunately, it turns out that the logo hasn't been permanently mothballed. Disappointing. Grade: F."
Braves officials deferred comment to Major League Baseball, which told CNN that the new batting practice cap designs for several MLB clubs, including the Braves, were still in development and may never end up on the diamond.
"We will unveil the program when it is finalized," the MLB statement said. "We do not know where (ESPN) obtained the designs. We can not make them available to CNN because they are not finalized or approved."
The screaming Indian was part of the Braves logo when the team moved to Atlanta from Milwaukee in 1966. It was retired in 1989.
The team also had a mascot, Chief Noc-a-Homa (knock a homer), who wore Native American dress and war paint.
The possibility of a new cap design drew fire from those who believe the image caters to unhealthy stereotypes of Native Americans.
Kevin Gover, director of the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of the American Indian, said he was deeply disappointed that the Braves may be choosing to go backwards.
Gover, 57, said he grew up with all sorts of stereotypes. He was hoping his grandchildren wouldn't.
"What this does is contribute to the casual racism native people are subjected to in our society," said Gover, a member of the Pawnee Nation.
The screaming Indian is an image of an imaginary Indian, Gover said. It and other stereotypical sports mascots, he said, do not portray Native Americans for what they truly are.
American Indian Movement founder Clyde Bellecourt said Native Americans "no longer want to be mascots for America's fun and games."
"They would not do this to black people," he said. "They would not do that to white people. They would not do this to Mexicans, or Italians. They do this to Indian people."
The controversy of sports mascots is, of course, not new. U.S. professional and collegiate sports teams have used Native American logos and names for years. Baseball's Cleveland Indians, for instance, continue to feature a smiling Indian dubbed Chief Wahoo, criticized as a racist caricature.
Sometimes this happens with the blessing of Native American tribes, and other times - like with the NFL's Washington Redskins, a term that many feel advances a demeaning stereotype - they have denounced as effectively racial slurs.
The NCAA imposes a ban on offensive Native American mascots and earlier this year, voters dumped the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux mascot. Florida State University's use of Seminole imagery is allowed because it is supported by the the state's Seminole Tribe.
Also this year, Oregon prohibited public schools from the use of Native American names, symbols or images as mascots. The names on the banned list include: Redskins, Savages, Indians, Indianettes, Chiefs and Braves.
Gover said a lot of people think it's OK to use Native American imagery. That was evident on the comments posed on the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's blog post about the Braves design:
User Dedoh wrote: "I love the old Braves uniforms. I could care less that someone is offended over the new logo. Too many people are offended by insignificant things that have no bearing on their daily life. The offended can watch another less offensive team. Go BRAVES!!!!!!!"
Slick Rick wrote: "This isn’t bad … but 'Redskins' is. That name should go away forever."
Other fans weighed in on an online forum on MLB.com, baseball's official website.
“How can you not love this?” wrote one commenter, with the moniker NELSKOF.
But one person, writing with the name Shag23, questioned whether the change was worth it.
“This new hat will draw a lot of attention, just maybe the wrong type,” the commenter wrote.
The comments were flowing on Twitter as well:
They're the Atlanta #Braves, not the Atlanta Savages. It's a screaming brave. Because - get this - he's brave.— Paul McCord (@jpmccord) December 28, 2012
They're the Atlanta #Braves, not the Atlanta Savages. It's a screaming brave. Because - get this - he's brave.
Still don't know how the Braves screaming Indian logo is racist. I'm about to go buy a hat with that logo on it to troll.— Ryan Hall (@ATLscrubLove) December 28, 2012
Still don't know how the Braves screaming Indian logo is racist. I'm about to go buy a hat with that logo on it to troll.
But Gover said such imagery leads kids to grow up thinking that all Native Americans look menacing or do the tomahawk chop, the customary "rally" routine of Braves fans.
"It's nice that they named a team after us but we don't behave like that," he said. "It's hard to see what honor there is in using that imagery."
CNN's Tristan Smith and David Close contributed to this report.
Tell us what you think of the Braves decision below. Is going retro a bad thing in this case?
The CHIEF of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians threw out the first pitch at one of their games for goodness sake. If the Indians were offended by the team, would he have done this. Everybody that lives in Cherokee, NC is a BRAVES fan. They do not care people. Get over thinking someone is going to be offended. It is a game, a sport, not real life!!!!
As a Yaqui Indian living in Tucson AZ, that screaming Indian logo is bad ass! it's a brave, I think its more of an honor & its celebrating a warrior that once existed. There is nothing offensive about this, i hope they bring it back. its 2013 we need to stop being so sensitive.
The original name for franchise was the Boston Braves. In 1933, the name was changed to Redskins by the team's coach William "Lone Star" Dietz who was actually Sioux. He was known to dress up in regalia and be open about his pride of being Native American. He saw the name as bestowing an image of pride and recognition for the Native American people. Therefore, the name itself came from a Native American who saw nothing wrong with the name.
I think their complaints are legitimate. After all, imagine the fury if the Lakers were renamed the "Hooting PorchM0nkeys" or the Redskins became "Pasty White Warriors".
How hard is it to be PC for all professional sports teams? Not like there's hundreds of them and not like they don't have the resources to creatively come up with something that may not offend people that have been wronged in the past. I'm sure if they came up with a better design, more people might be okay with it. I just don't believe the "screaming Indian" clearly represent the brave native american heritage that the team is supposedly upholding. Where are the designers of the team doing? Isn't this what they are paid to do?
why so soft?
This is not racist. If anything it portrays and honors Native American warriors for their bravery. On the other hand, you have teams like the Cleveland INDIANS that use a caricature logo of a red-faced man and a misnomer for a name. Same thing with the Washington REDSKINS. The Braves are using this in the least offensive and honorary manner possible.
GO BRAVOS 2013!
And I will definitely be buying a hat.
"i am native american and have no problem with it". "What about vikings and celts?" "the mascots honor the bravery and fighting spirit of an indigenous culture." ..... so say the nazis had won, worked all their magic with rebuilding and moving through the years to become an unapologetic power house of the UN. Then they said, hey, let's have a soccer team. we can call 'em the Fightin' Askenazis with a rabbi mascot in honor of their fighting spirit and their historic place in our culture. Bet their descendants would feel great about what happened in the camps then. ANd so long ago...can't we just get over it? And to the best of my knowledge, the vikings were dominant invaders, not victims, to the americas. Bu i am still waiting on a a tour of the boston celtic reservations here, you know. where we relocated the boston celts and let them die od disease and starvation.
Let's change the name to the Messiahs. The logo could be Jesus with a big grin swinging a big bat. They could have Dress Like Jesus night. I wonder how many (so-called) Christians would be saying "just get over it"???
You don't hear us (Christians/Catholics) whining about the Padres, with the monk mascot swinging a bat do you? Or the Irish whining about the Fighting Irish leprechaun or the Celtics (the only problem I have wioth the latter is they pronounce it wrong!)
I'm Native American and I am offended by the use of Indians for sport team mascots. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go cash my paycheck from the casino and then me go smokum a peace pipe. Blah blah blah. As you can see, my New Years resolution was to work on being more PC. How am I doing?
they are no better north of the border either.
always crying about something.
Cause obviously, all Native Americans smoke "peace pipes" are so well off and don't have any right to be upset. It's not like entire cultures and tribes died off and are still dying off. The Braves shouldn't use the image. While many may see it as harmless, it does perpetuate racism and makes it okay to lump Native Americans together as one group that is used solely for marketing purposes in the U.S.
It is not the image, it is people's lack of awareness to the tolerance of diminishing another culture. It is not just bloodline, "Part-Indian", giving thought. If you are LIVING the culture, you see the disrespect of the culture. Say we renamed the Redskins to the Veterans. Now the feathers become medals. The war paint becomes a cross or other religious necklace. The war whoop becomes "Mai Lai" or "Guantanamo". The tomahawk becomes an assault rifle. The war bonnet becomes the Green Beret. Fans can dress up as veterans with fake medals, various uniform hats. Opposing teams' fans can hang, mutilate, burn, disparage, swear, .... veterans. Do you see these images and activities as respectful? What will it teach your children about veterans?
It might be tough for a Rookie to fit onto a team called the Veterans
I notice no one goes on about the Minnesota Vikings...why is that? Is it because the Viking is a white man?
The reason people don't have a problem with vikings as mascots is because the founders of this country didn't SLAUGHTER millions of vikings in the name of greed (and christianity) like they did the native Americans. It would be like a soccer team in Germany have Jews as their mascot.
The Vikings just altered their Viking logo, for whatever reasons.
i think we all can agree that what happened to native americans is a national tragedy. but tribes in america were always in warfare with one another, it seems like everyone forgets that little piece of history. there were even tribes that fought along side the confederates & the french during the revolution, weird!
I'm proud to be native american & mexican and i love reading about my history but we all gotta stop being so sensitive, we're becoming a nation of babies. people always think something is raciest or offensive, its ridiculous.
The last step in the process of genocide is to view an ethnic group in an unhumane manner. Portraying them as less than human. There is nothing honorable about the use of a Native American Indian cartoon image as a mascot of anything.
There is a cultural resurgence going on. We are still here, we are IDLE NO MORE. BTW – The violence against women act in Congress is being held up because it provides the same level of protection for native women and LGBT people.
Wake up folks!
"The screaming Indian is an image of an imaginary Indian, Gover said. It and other stereotypical sports mascots, he said, do not portray Native Americans for what they truly are."
So maybe something more realistic, like a drunk Native American on a reservation? As another "native american" (my family has been here for nearly 400 years – I'm native enough) I have no problems with sylized mascots such as "The Patriots." These people need to get over it. They whine on about phantom PR issues more than they try to resolve their internal problems. The same can be said for many other special intrest groups.
I'm not a drunk, over weight Indian.
My whole family are not drunks, nor overweight. Most people in my community are not overweight or have drinking problems.
How about just not have an Indian mascot, how hard is that?
I first would like to start off by saying that Native Americans are starting to become some sensitive, greedy, and manipulative people. Now, I'm going to shred the logos from the Redskins to the Braves down and lets try and find what is so racist about them at all. First, they have red/brown skin, well since we're talking about Native Americans in general and not individual groups that means all Native American; therefore, leading to the conclusion that their are Native American that have brown skin and they are some who used red war paint, hence Redskins and the color of the braves logo. Next, the hair Redskins logo has pigtails and the Braves has a mohawk, now if a Native American come forth and says they are offended by a mohawk or pigtail I'm going ask him to go watch the Last of the Mohicans and notice the're are actually Sioux and Cherokee Indians where those two hair style and didn't complain. Secondly, the open mouth well the last time I heard Native Americans chant to spirits and had dances conjure rain and all kinds of mystical things from nature. Finally, the tomahawk chop, head dresses, and chant, like before Native Americans did wear head dresses granted the chief wore the only elaborate head dress, ya'll did use a tomahawk in battle, and I'm not sure on the chant, but if you dislike it so much how about giving us one that is means something battle related, so we can use it during games.
End the argument by by changing the team's name to the "Overpaid Athletes Who Pay Too Much in Taxes" or OAWPTMT. Then license the face of Donald Trump frowning as the new logo.
The Braves are a winning team, who honor Native Americans with the name. If Native Americans don't like it, the Chicanos will be happy to loan their Race's Name to the team.
I'm Native American. I think it's awesome that the longest tenured Major League Baseball program chooses a Native American as it's mascot. Afterall, they are the Braves. U.S. is the home of the Brave! How is this offensive? God help us if anyone ever calls their team the Mayans. They'll all rise from the dead...
Normally I dont waste my time commenting things like this. However today I will. People are allowed in this country to not be happy with this topic. Also people are allowed to love what is being done with mascots. I think it is wonderful that both of the sides are speaking here. However mascots should not be banned this is government intrusion on our basic rights of free speech. However if enough peolle feel strongly enough to not support the teams with mascots that one does not like than that team will lose enough money that they will change it.
I personally do not have a issue with it. Yes I am a white american male. But I dont have an issue with anyone making fun of that ether. Everyone have a great new year.
My alma mater was one of the first schools in NY, to change its mascot. We went from being a the Marauder Indian to the Marauding Wolf. My class happend to be the first senior class to adopt the mascot....truth of the matter is we didn't play any better or worse as either a wolf or Indian. When the debate was happening I was all of 17, and even then I knew you played the game for fun and pride, and "Gover" should stop and think that when he says we would never use whites,blacks,or Asians as a mascot what that says about the Native American people. Have you ever seen a native mascot weak or fragile? Personally I would be more offended by the crying Indian commercial about littering! However, if this group is SO against having their heritage immortalized with adoring fans, I'm pasty white, can easily make a face of determination and these pro teams can use my picture as their mascot....from pop Warner to the pros by all means use me as your mascot! UNLESS its the Red Sox....blaaahh...now that is offensive!!
It turned out that the person who crying in the commercial about polluted water was not an Original American or First American or Indian or Native American. It was Iron Eyes Cody, who made money playing such roles in Republic movies. He was Italian-American, as he finally admitted later in life. Jay Silverheels, a Mohawk who played Tonto, had long said that Iron Eyes was not an Original American.
This has bothered me for years.....as a Native American I just find many sports teams are using racism to cash in....the Redskins is not respectful at all.....if a team called the Denver Darkies existed it would have been boycotted as racist a long time ago....we can't fly a confederate flag that is racist, we have to watch the use of the word monkey because it might be misunderstood.....however a black man can put on a redskins jersey and cash his big checks and that is not racist at all......
Actually its not any individual member of the team, its the team itself which is the owner or ownership group. Funny you point out only the black man on the team and not the owners who approve of the team logo's. Tells me a lot about you.
Why are Native American mascots getting so much hate? No one complains about the Minnesota Vikings or the Boston Celtics. People just need to chill out.
Really Josh, You don't understand the difference between a native "American" and a viking as a mascot ? Really?
The slaughter of the Irish was much worse by the English. Besides military means, the English refused to feed the Irish from their own full grain bins in Ireland during the Irish potato famine. Some justified this by saying economic laws required not interference in survival of the fittest. Some scientists like Darwin justified this by saying that the laws of evolution seemed to be saying that the inferior Irish should be eliminated.
Josh, maybe because the vikings and the celtics weren't slaughtered by the millions in this country, as the native Americans were. As if it's not bad enough that the founders of this country destroyed an entire civilization of people, forced them off their land, spread diseases among them, and killed any of them that wouldn't convert to christianity, now people want to make money off using a sterotypical image in their likeness. Use your brain for a moment.
Well, the Celts were slaughtered by the Romans. The vikings slaughtered pretty much whatever was slower than them. Yes the Natives of America were killed in horrible ways, but they also fought alongside a lot of white Americans. If you look hard enough in history all mascots have problems and violent tendencies. Spartans- killed helots, Crusaders- the crusades. If you want to protect one type of people from being made a mascot, then protect them all, or else you're a bigot. Use your brain for a moment and pick up a book.
Why is this writer prejudice against Native Americans? Many cultures, peoples and ethnic groups are represented as sports mascots, why can't Native Americans be there with the rest of us?
Ditto. Why cant there be a team named "Colts SS" or "Patriot Whities"? Perhaps a screaming snowflake or KKK Grand Dragon as the mascot?!
Oh the possibilities.
When do we get a Dutch German Russian American in America article on CNN?
Nope, you are 80 years too late for Germans and Russians to be in the headlines.
I say we get rid of all references to Native American culture in our media. Forget about them entirely.
I agree....forget the weak and beaten
Don't think Pentagon is going to like this one.
I agree lets instead replace those team names like the atlanta alquada or the washington bin ladens. Who wouldnt want these brave sacrificial warriors as a team mascot and the pride of a city?
How about a really cool logo of Gen Custer with an arrow sticking out of his chest going "ARRGGHH?"
With an indian on horseback shooting the arrow? go for it!
I don't usually wear hats, but one with Custer might get me to wear one. Always thought he got exactly what he deserved. Too bad it didn't happen sooner.
Its more likely Custer got it from a rifle. many Sioux and cheynne had lever action repeaters.
Also, most native americans, ( My Grandmother was Muscogee) who mutilated enemy dead, did so to weaken them in the fights in the next life. If the legend of Custer being unscalped is true, it follows they weren't worried about facing him in the next life.
I can't see why the screaming brave logo is offensive, not like he's got a liquor bottle in his hand like real natives do lol.
I'm part Indian and don't find it offensive. My ancestors were brave warriors and the war rituals should be remembered. I think the image is noble and don't get what's racists about it. We had Braves that fought against all odds for a long time. Why not remember that each time they Braves take the field.
There are stupid foreigners trying to meddle in our affairs here.
This is so offensive lib says, then attacks RG3 for not acting out the stereotype lib has created for him.
could you imagine if they use a black man face with a gold grill screaming on their hat???? and thier name was the Zulus. the liberals would go crazy
Or if they made a huge white dot and called it "vanilla face". Can you imagine what would that do to the Republicans?
And you have Indian friends? I was waiting for that one. Let me guess, you also have black friends, haha. I can't believe you actually used that one.
Musta missed my earlier posts. Wouldn't expect you to do much reading...takes you away from hating. Said I joined some of my friends from st sabina in a walk for peace right through our most dangerous streets in englewood. Think you'd show sum respect on that. Did it for our youth. Bro, in a big city you grow up with everyone. I have friends from all types of people. Why you trying to analyze a stranger on a publi forum anyway
Out of respect for my Native friends and all the blessed ways they have shared their culture with my family , I have nothing to say to you. Especially because you don't care.
"I have nothing to say to you". Is that starting now, or was that before the 20 posts you made to me? You seriously crack me up!
Blah blah blah. Stop wasting space with your immaturity
Wait, I thought you had nothing to say to me? Hmm, let me look quick....Yup, that's what you said. Not just that, but it was "Out of respect for my Native friends and all the blessed ways they have shared their culture with my family". Nice way of showing respect.
Hey. Today in Chicago, get my chance to support Idle No More! Chief Spence is on her 25th day of holding her prayer without food. People of prayer stand with First Nations in prayerful solidarity.
Just in case you can't figure out why I posted that, this kind of stuff like I am participating in today is how I show respect. You? Ooh. Wait. That would involve taking the microscope of your own life and getting out in the world and doing something positive instead of attacking someone you don't know on the internet.
the indian symbol is racist and should not be brought back. the government should order these sports teams to get rid of all racist indian logos, names and symbols, asap!
And just why do we need to get government involved in this issue? MLB is a private business and the ball clubs are franchises granted by MLB. This is an MLB issue NOT a federal issue. Problem w all this BS is that it's always, "let's get the gov't to ban this or force that." If you don't like the symbols, emblems, etc., don't buy it, don't go to the games and don't watch baseball because you "might be offended." I'm offended that I'm even having to write something because we have dimwits in this country that can't think for themselves and have to have "massa gov't" control their lives. pathetic
Everyone grow up !!!!!!! When you go to the hospital and need a blood transfusion do they ask you if you are: Italian- American, African- American, Native-American, Polish-American, Mexican-American etc..........
NO, they ask what is your blood type. If we are all humans and would treat everyone with the same respect we want in return, then all of this garbage about team logos should make us all laugh. Now let's get on to bigger issues here in the melting pot of the world.
You hit the nail on the head my friend... I couldn't have out it any better...Well said..
Oh no please you didn't need to go there. You now have some Democrat grinning right now saying yeah lets start a divide and conquer on blood type, the oppressed O negatives need liberals to defend them!
Well this Indian isn't laughimg @ Rick. How dare white people try and tell me what is important. The very bottom line is that this is about one group (wghite owned sports teams) telling another group (Natives) that we have no rights in regards to how our cultural images are used. The image of a NAtive Warrior isn't up for use by white sports teams jhust because they feel like it.
Their point is....they don't care!
You can have the image back but the ball club owners want the casino and tax exemptions.
The Black Dr. who first typed blood, Died in the south of injuries, needing blood. only' white' blood was at that hospital.
Competi tive sports team, hello?
Hes pink and looks like hes laughing at a joke...... he needs a fierce, compet itive face... the team and fans should look at the the logo and say Yeah that us!......
DISGUSTING, ATLANTA BRAVES! We have been fans forever. I feel so conflicted. I don't want my sons watching this racist, screaming insult of a person as a mascot. Take away the logo. For shame.
Okay, change all those logos and mascot to something that pertains to white people!
I think that would make much more sense seeing it is that the NAtives who live around atlanta were actually forcibly removed from their land amd sent to oaklahoma. The Cherokees. Ever hear of them? ITs kind of a salt on the wound type of scenario , no?
This is stupid. This war was fought 200 years ago, and it's over. Like it or not, the big bad White guys won. Way before my time, I had nothing to do with it – so stop trying to make me pay for the sins of my ancestors. Oh, but wait – I do have some native blood in my family tree. Mexican too, so you might say I've been doubly scr3wed by someone somewhere in the past. Oh hey, what about the Boston Celtics or Fighting Irish or San Diego Aztecs? Don't forget about the Conquistadors or Warriors. Canucks? Isn't that slang for French Canadians?
You're right. So therefore a better logo for Atlanta would be Honey Boo Boo.
You are kind of right about that. I mean if those french canadians identify as cannucks and they want to call their region team the cannuckls then fine. If white people can be in control of their white mascots and cultural archetypes thats fine. As an Indian I want to be in control of mine and I say the image of an Indian Warrior is not up for grabs for White owned ball clubs.
Moronic statments like this are disrespectful
"They would not do this to black people," he said. "They would not do that to white people. They would not do this to Mexicans, or Italians. They do this to Indian people."
Notre Dame? White little leprechaun with his fists raised ready to fight somebody. The difference is white people don't throw a hissy fit.
I think you nailed. White people don't throw a hissy fit.
yea, USC Trojans (white soldier riding on a horse carrying a sword) perfectly fine, Florida State Seminoles (Native Soldier riding on a horse carrying a spear) culturally insensitive.
Way to go Atlanta Braves- it is time to stand up for what is really right & wrong in America & the issues of mascot is way way way way down at the bottom of lists. When most people look at the Braves logo – their first thought is not "wow that is racist" – no – they think baseball! The same goe for most sports team logos. It's time for the minority to find a new real cause to champion. How about focusing all that effort & money on Native Ameircan alcoholism, or education or health issues? Seems that those are more important than a baseball teams logo – yet I don't see the same efforts of these people directed at it. I'll make a deal – these people go fix those three things for native Americans & when they do I'll join their cause to change the Braves logo.
for all of you pretending that you care about native american's rights: quit being so self-righteous. If you care so much about them, than forfeit all of your land and property and give back what is their's
I would love it if you all gave it back to us and left-I think I'll file that under dream come true
Go back to your old logo Atlanta...BE BRAVE!!!!
The disrespectful thing is this. Natives should be able to approve of ANY images used for profit in their name.
YES, whites took everything that was theirs, now they have almost no power..
At-least give them the power to profit, or deny, the images used for profit of their ancestors.
going to give Greece profit off Spartan logos? Trojan Logos? Going to give the National Wildlife Association for use of Animal logos?
Native culture still exists in America. However small. 90% off all native people were killed by disease, most of the rest, we went to war with. The only respect we can give to them is atleast the consultations of the elders they still have. To compare the natives or America to a dead civilization, is, misguided.
Recall also how two tribes thanked the whites for conquering them because it stopped their own wars against each other. They resembled that South Sea Island where two tribes had as their main cultural activity fighting and killing members of the other tribe in a kind of honor activity.
This is America's biggest problem, Everyone is just so offended by something that they have to cry and sue and try to make other people stop doing what they are doing. Put your big boy pants on and move on. All these people that are "getting offended" don't care if they are offending you, but watch out you better not offend them or they are suing, going to the news, or writing a 10 page blog about it. Grow up people.
I don't see what is so disparaging about this. A Native American brave, screaming or otherwise, is not being used disrespectfully, or else no sports team would use it. It is a symbol of strength, of the warrior ethos, and of courage. I do agree that you typically don't see this as much with other races, but they are represented. Any ancient warrior (Trojan, Spartan, etc.) is somewhat of a white example. Likewise for the mascot for the Patriots, West Virginia, Notre Dame, etc. Not exactly the same but similar. If anything you'd think that some other races would be trying to put their foot forward to come up with a powerful mascot similar to the Native Americans. Not controversial ones though.
The Braves get the logo.
The Native Americans get the casinos.
Penny – you sound as though you've made or considered similar "fair trades" in your line of work. Glad you understand.
yeah not really a fair trade
"Braves get the logo.
"Native Americans get the casinos, the displacement, the destruction of their culture, their land taken from them, and the incessant insistence by mainstream America that they no longer exist"
No, not a fair trade at all.
Word Drew!! Truth talking!!
Nice. Now I can go. Thanks drew and smallz. You two just made this last frustrating hour I didn't count on worth it. Many blessings! Mitakuye Oyacin forever & ever!
Yeah, go back to pretending you're an Indian savior. We'll do fine on our own. Thank you
Oh. boo hoo!
And you just keep pretending you speak for all native american experience and all native america.
@ Tim – Hey I didn't write that last thing!!
Some of you don't think it's a big deal, because you have NEVER seen your race used as a mascot, played in black face by white characters, denied rights based on their skin (don't you dare bring up affirmative action, moot point, white women benefit most). Thank you for using your brain Drew....no one's crying, but until ALL races are used as mascots.....this is definitely offensive and not cute! Also very unoriginal! I bet they wouldn't be brave enough to wear that hat anywhere near a reservation. White folks are funny, it's ok though....they're the new minority, can't wait to see all the schools start calling their teams the "Whites" and using Honey Boo Boo's family as the mascot!
This is an easy one. The morals/values/laws of Western culture are meaningless here. A spokesperson from the tribes who care should say whether or not this display is okay and the oblivious sport's marketing team should listen. And act without question. The white butts know nothing.
That's the NCAA's standard. A college isn't allowed to use a Native American name/mascot, unless they are endorsed by an applicable tribe.
Of course, the NCAA has no problem keeping their headquarters in INDIANapolis, INDIANa.
RE point no. 1. That is good to hear. I hope they do an honest job of asking for the endorsement.
Bud Farmer- Word! If a tribe wants their likeness to be used its should be on their terms
the white butts? hah now that is Racist. double standard my friend, double standard.
It is good to ignore meathead comments by spiritual bankrupt morons. Or else we'd all be living our lives in the muck of ignorance as this cat is.
One thing that I realize is that empathy is only created by living or experiencing something similar to others that feel wronged. it is for this reason that we see so many whites arguing online in favor of keeping these images. Whites as a group have had a great time in this country without being slaves or murdered until near extinction and pushed to reservations. If this happened to your culture like blacks or Native Americans, they would be more sensitive to how they are portrayed. Blacks have been made into many negative characters throughout the years from every angle including Hollywood and advertisement. Therefore, it is very easy for me to feel empathetic to my Native brothers and sisters. Stay strong folks and hopefully one day the message will get through even the thickest of heads.
i am half native american and my mom is full navajo, we look at this and are not offended by it in anyway. Seriously its a picture of an indian laughing, just take it for face value, what more do you see to it than this?
ITs not an image for White sports team owners to use and profit from. And if people are offended they should respect us and stop using it. White people need to stop thinking they can just keep taking our culture away from us and use it for their own gains. Thats what I think this is about. The image itself may be offensive to me but the underlying story is what disturbs me.
Although I cannot really be considered Native American, my grandfather was. Like many of his tribe (and others) there were more serious issues than logos and stereotypes (like poverty, lake of education, alcoholism, diabetes and racism). This country still has not dealt with many of these issues. Grandfather used to like the University of Illinois symbol, Chief Illiniwek, because in the day it was one of only a few positive images of "indians" (although not really accurate to the Illini tribe dress). It is sad that politics and political correctness have literally whitewashed some positive traditions. My fear is that the native culture is being lost forever as hypersensitivity to "logos" are pushing that culture further in the shadows. One final note. My wife is Irish and finds the Notre Dame mascot offensive, portraying Irish people as drunken, belligerent hoodlums. Why not the same sensitivity, PC police?
What pushes us into the shadows is white people using our image for their own profit and sport. Not respecting our wishes in how these images are used. These images also don't really tell our stories. What ensures our survival is giving NAtive Americans complete control over how our images are used and 100% profit from that usage. These images are not for whites to use on their terms they belog to us and they are for us to use on our terms. If we want to even use them at all. Supporting NAtive Businesses and commerce is a way to ensure our survival. Personally I'd like to sue the pro teams for using offensive native images as their nmascots. That money would be well put to use on the res!!
Also if you find white mascots offensive then you can see how we feel. IF you don't like them then speak out against it. Thats on you to do.
What if there was a team named the South Florida Jews, and the mascot dressed all in black with a black hat and earlocks, and instead of the tomohawk chop everyone danced teh Hava Nagila? On cetain days yamakas would be passed out. I'm sure that EVERYONE would call this racist or prejudice and it would not be allowed.
Here's another one. What if the team name was the Christians and there was a guy dressed like Jesus at every game. Fans would wear thorned crowns instead of cheese heads, etc. I don't think that would fly either, but when it's about Native Americans we say, "Damn, why are they so sensitive!" Damn, the fball team for the nation's capital is called the REDSKINS for crying out loud, how more racist can we be. Our treatment of Native Americans is disgusting.
True talk baby true talk!!
Unfortunately for your theory, there already are the Padres, and the Friars, and the Saints, and the Angels, and the Bishops, and the Deacons, and the Cardinals (the religious type), and the ....
See the trend? See anyone whining?
White owned sports teams that control and profit from the limage and likeness of white cultural icons that reflect the traditions of white people or schools etc are not the same as white owned sports teams co-opting the image and likeness of NAtive people. Those sports teams aren't owned bu NAtive Americans. They forcibly removed all the Indians from Atlantas and sent them the Oaklahoma. You might have heard of them, The Cherokees. These images aren't for white owned teams to use and profit off of. That's the bottom line. If whilte people don't like their team mascots they are free to protest. We certainly don't like whites stealing out images and cultural icons
I see. So you're saying that a team's name/mascot that is human in nature is only allowed if it represents the owner.
I guess the Vikings can only be owned by someone from Scandinavian decent.
A Muslim, Jew or atheist must be prohibited from owning the teams I mentioned (unless they agree to change the name).
And the Indians, Chiefs, Redskins, et al would magically be OK, if the owner were Native American.
No G_Edwards I'm saing that I don't like when White owned sports teams use NAtive American Images or cultural icons. What white people do with their own mascots, logos, cultural icons that represent their regions and teams and founders is their business. No NAtive American Owned the Braves and no NAtives profit from their use of NAtive Images.
What most people don't know, is the Indians which were in America were actually of Danish blood, and had come here around the 1300's. About 200 years before Columbus."
check yourself before you wreck yourself....Indians came over the bering sea land bridge man!! ITs science man!!the Danes might have visted and intermarried but they didn't populate north america. Nuh-uh. Nope.
You're wrong on this one. Grandson is going to work for Indian Affairs, I think he knows more than you. School should teach the truth about Natives
That sort of nonsense should get him banned from any further discussion of native americans which live in extreme poverty in many places, suicide and violence is rampant and they suffered genocide numerous times. Mankato 38 were just recognized by Lakota riders in a good way, wounded knee, sand creek. Is the cleveland logo offensive to native peoples? Yes. We first gave them our diseases on first contact, then a few hundred years of 3rd world treatment while we continue to exploit all the Land here on Turtle Island. But going forward, things can be healed in a good way. Things like THISLOGO hurt people.
Actually, many people don't know the truth about disease either. Most modern day std's were made by the Danish Native's who had a culture of sleeping with multiple women.
"It's nice that they named a team after us but we don't behave like that."
No, from all the experience I've had with Indians they all behave like drunken, lazy slobs.
Which is the better image to have? Being a brave or being a drunk?
II am a Native American and i work everyday just like many other Americans..... I work with indians everyday and yea we like to drink party have a good time but all of us ain't lazy slobs. There's lazy slobs in every race if you haven't noticed.I can guarantee if you would come to are community you would never get the chance to say that again. You have to be one ignorant person to make a statement like that....
That logo is just plain horrible looking. The gaping mouth is just disturbing.
As a real native, I do not find this offensive. I think its a pretty cool design. I do however think the braves are a crappy baseball orgination. I do think as well if this had been a blackface tar baby logo, that jessie and the naacp would be marchimg or protesting or something fierce.
Having 1/8 Cherokee in me I don't think it's offensive towards the Native Americans. But what I have noticed is that the Native American NAtions and their representatives seem to always find anything offensive that has anything to do with Native Americans in the news or anything otherwise.
By the way thats why I do not like to tell people I have Native American in me. I say try to identify myself as german.
maybe what you should be offended by is that the Cherokees that were from the Atlanta area were actually forcibly removed from their homeland and sent to Oaklahoma not of their own accord. I feel like Atlanta itself has given up the right to even think about using a NAtive American as their mascot. IT isn't their image to use. ITs not theirs to use and profit from/
what I find offensive is that nobody asked us permission. the Braves aren't owned by Indians. therefore they really don't have a right to use our image and if one of us says to stop using it they should. White people should find their own mascots and icons and stop stealing ours and making a profit off of them.
Well, there are the Boston Celtics. :-)
WEll those white people can decide for themselves how their white mascot's image is used and leave our image of our people alone.
Let's bring back Lil Black Sambo,Frito Bandido,Steppin Fetchit,Spuds MacKenzie and Joe Camel.
White people need to be quiet and stop attacking things that minorities don't care about. White people are the ones who banned illinois university imagery. White people are the ones who temporarily banned Speedy Gonzales until the mexican american outrage at this.
White people are the ones attacking teams like the Washington Redskins despite a 2002 poll commissioned by Sports Illustrated found that 75% of those American Indians surveyed had no objection to the Redskins name.
White people need to shut their mouths and let minorities fight their own battles
Good grief, I'm almost totally bald. Do you know how many times this is made fun of in movies, TV and in our cultural. Shall I start protesting. heck, they are not even making fun of it, itlikes very prideful to me. If you are offended by this logo, get over it.
I don't like white people profiting off of the use of my culture. Did that sports illustrated poll ask these Indians if they thought they should be seeing a profit from the use of their images on merchandise etc? Did the Sports illustrated poll ask if they tought they should have control over the image and how its used? I bet I know what the answers would be. There are plenty of problems on the res that some of that money would help. And actual REAL WARRIORS coming home from a REAL WAR that need support.
The fighting irish exist and nobody cares. Speedy Gonzales was approved by the mexican american community. Its time that native american logos are are well by the native american community.
People cherish native american imagery in this country.
Its not for white people to say what should be ok for Native people and their images and likenesses. White people dont' get to decide that. These images were not for whites to use for sport and profit.
As an African American, I agree 100% with your statement!!
White people? Thought we were talking about the cleveland indian logo and whether its wrong towards native americans. It is. If you hate white people that's another story.
@ Timothy where do I talk about hating whites? I don't trust them as they have proven to be untrustworthy but I don't hate! I said they need to leave the business of our images to us and stop trying to steal and profit from them. They need to respect our wishes when we say they can't use them. Where is this hate talk you speak of???
Well you havn't met this person. Hey I'm just waste Chicago. I have made some relatives on Cheyenne River and always speak out in Love and Defense of Native Americans and First Nations Peoples. I am a catholic born and raised and knowing the Native Americans I have met has helped me become a better person. Just sent out a special box filled with presents for Hope Faith. She is 8 and I have known her since she was born. That's love man. The logo–thumbs down. Be open to people though. No matter where...some good people, some bad. Stay well
This whole discussion...is the use of the new and current logo wrong. Native Americans say it is hurtful because it is cultural appropriation. Just like victoria secret model, monaco princess, even girls walking around with feathers in there hair and fringed boots. Until we can lift our native brothers and sisters out of a state of suffering THE modern nation of the united states incurred. All those living their materialitic consumptionist lifestyle aren't doing much judging based on some of the comments on this thread to do right not just by Native Americans....but by all peoples. Stop the hatred and killing people!
People who brag about their "charity" are always among the worst type of people. They tell themselves that they are doing charity, but are actually just paying a fee, so that they can go around telling people how good they are. Oh, and it helps them sleep better at night as they pat themselves on the back. Complete ego freaks.
It's the people that don't have charity or love in their life that are always jealous and seeking to make others feel bad like them. I was just making a point to smalls because he sounds like a good young man and I went ahead and shared a personal fact just to let a young brother know there are people out there who care. Respect Natives , Hate on tim. It's some of the truly ignorant comments on this strain that are worrisome. The haters like you...No biggie.
Tim, who are you trying to fool? Yourself? People who actually give from their heart don't feel the need to go around telling others about, like yourself. It's quite pathetic actually. You actually pay for the ability to go around telling others about it. So you can be the white guy at the party bragging about how he cares about the Indians. So pathetic. Try not to hurt your arm while you're slapping your back.
Just tell the truth now, when was the last time you did something for someone in need? I do it all the time. I am a humble man but I do believe small acts of kindness and charity can make a difference in this world. Here in my hometown today we reached 500 murders for the year. Again, what do you do? Me, I have participated in marches through those streets saying stop the violence. What do you dou? I gave what I could to help the Lakota buy back the Sacred Pe Sla. What did you do. Man that's my whole life is doing stuff like that. You?
Hey guess what? Jokes on all of you cuz I'm a woman!!!
@ Tim- Activism is activism as long as you are fighting the good fight thats ok with me.
Well ms smallz. Much love to you and all native people. I promise you I have good relations with many people and do many good things for them just like I try to do for everybody. What else is there? You know. That's so funny tho
Wow, as if to prove the point, you brag about even more. My work? Well, I do what I can, but feel no need to tell everyone about it. You see, I do it because I care for certain organizations and causes. I don't feel it's about me, and therefore have no need to tell everyone about it. You on the other hand, feel that your money and time is worthy of praise, and can't help from telling everyone about it. I think it's quite pathetic, but you do whatever makes you feel better.
You have me all wrong. I am not bragging. I came across this article just an hour ago. The strain of comments seemed really negative, smallz caught my attention as I am always caught by native youth like other youth but especially native. They are hurting bad and unlike where I live they where our youths are killing each other on the reservations youts are killing themselves. I have visited with families and am honored to call families friends from the poorest county in the united states...ziebach county. Listen, I try never speak from ego...everything I say has some kinda of good intention behind it. Even my negative words I am usually defending some one or group like my posts aimed at ignorant posters here. Not sure how I offended you, whatever. God bless
Didn't offend me at all, I was simply calling a spade a spade. You act like you're such an amazing person, helping out the poor unfortunate Indian. Yet, you call them a young male, without knowing either. You simply act like you're the superhero white man. That in itself is offensive. Maybe you don't know, but there are numerous charitable works going on every day; anonymously paying for the gas on pump 9. Or covering the persons groceries in front of you at the grocery store. You may not know these things, because they are done without telling everyone about them. That is a sign of charity. Bragging about it isn't.
Way to take it back to you and your ego. I already said if I offended you...whatever. And called you out for out doing anything charitibe probably ever. I love sharing and talking about the things I do and people I meet, beats the negativity and railing on and on from ego centered rants attacking people different from you.
As far as charity, I give in my church regularly. You? I help homeless people with money or tobacco regularly. I recently donated some clothes directly to some people on the streests. Attended a prayer service fvor newtown elementary yesterday morning. Only the immature posters here would not say, hey that's great, or hey keep up the good work helping people. No, you keep attacking...I'll just keep offering examples up of the good way I live.
just to be clear too, I love Native americans and probably have visited more reservation communities than either of you two and can't count more native americans friends than either of you combined. I pray with Native Americans regularly as well, both traditional & my own catholic way.
Wow Tim, you just can't help yourself. Since you're familiar with the Bible, you must also know of the Pharisees. You know, those people who did "good works" in order to brag about them, and get accolades. Sound familiar Tim? You must also know that they were the worst type of people. So go on Tim, tell us more about how great you are:)
Whatever. Your citing the bible now? Your a joker. Go do something good with your life and stop investing so much time in hating people you don't know. If you hate white people that's your biz. I love humanity.
Tim, I believe it's "you're", as in you are.
Love how all the non-Native Americans have an opinion on this. Easy to scream "Not racist!" when it's somebody else's race.
What about that offensive little leprechaun used by the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish"? Why isn't anybody screaming about that?
Keep your hands off my lucky charms.
But they are magically delicious! The lucky charms, that is...
What I find ironic is that some of the people who come to the defense of Native Americans against what they perceive to be racist against Native Americans continue to refer to Native Americans as "Indian", never once realizing how that could be (and is) considered derogatory against actual Indians.
I also wonder why the Seminoles seem to be the only Native American tribe to be proud of the fact that they are used as a mascot for a sports team. As a matter of fact, I remember a few years ago when the movement to remove all Native American references from college sports teams came to a head, the Seminole people threw their support behind Florida State University.
This is a great example!! Yes! this is something the Florida Seminoles decided for themselves!! They work out whatever deal they have with the university! However, No NAtive people see any profit from the Atlanta BRaves and No NAtives own that team. We have no say how this image is used. You see what I'm getting at. IF a tribe wants to enter into an agreement about the use of their name as a schools' mascot then let it be on that tribes terms. What NAtives benefit from the braves or even have a say on how their logo is used?? None
Become a shareholder of Liberty Media (the company that owns the Braves). You can become one of those activist shareholders and show up at the yearly shareholder meeting. Nobody is stopping you from owning a piece of the Braves but you.
Should I be offended when I am not asked how the New England Patriots use their logo? I am not receiving any money from them, and my ancestors fought on both sides of the Revolution, yet I do not care. Is it because I am a supremacist? NO! It is because I understand that it is something from American history. It is not like it is a negative image that Braves are going to use either, it is a brave warrior, what is there to be upset about? It is not like they are glorifying the Trail of Tears.
Smallz, I applaud what you've tried to do here. These people just don't want to hear it. Nobody wants to believe they are wrong. You stuck it through much longer than I did, partly because over half my comments just didn't show up. I must have said something the filter picked up, although I didn't swear or call names or anything like that. Either way, while I decided hours ago that all these people simply can't be reasoned with and will NEVER see what's offensive with people making caricatures of our race for their own profit and amusement, you've continued to try to explain WHY it's a problem. So I've been sitting around fuming to myself, and you've been trying to fight the good fight. They're clearly not listening, but you continue to try, and for that I commend you. Never change. I'll try to follow your example.
@ Cherokee- I swear this is how we lasted!!
Excuse me, Capone, but most American Indians prefer to be called Indians, not Native Americans. You've got it backwards. AIM stands for American Indian Movement. BIA is the Bureau of Indian Affairs. AISES stands for American Indian Science and Engineering Society. I could go on and on. Read postings by the late Russell Means on the terms. Personally I prefer First Nations for Indian societies, but that term doesn't lend itself well to describing individuals. Regardless, Native American is a term coined by a sociologist many decades ago and caught on in mainstream society but is not universally accepted among Indians. Ironically when I identify as Indian among members of the dominant society, in replying they frequently switch to referring to my Native American roots, apparently thinking that it is a more polite or respectful or politically correct term. It is none of the above, it comes across as a strained ignorant attempt to come up with something more appropriate than Indian. But Indian is what we are and what we will remain.
Warm Sprimgs Represent!!!
Umatilla Represnt!! Siletz!! Klamath Falls Whaaat!!
That remark got me so upset I spilled mustard and relish juice all over my white tee shirt.....
It were the white men who first called the (iroquoi) natives ‘brave’. And the reason they called them ‘brave’ had to do with the fact that whereas the natives favored belly-to-belly, nose-to-nose fighting, the white men preferred long-distance fighting; the longer the distance, the better the white men liked it!; as can be seen today with the white mans uses of missiles and drones.
Our images are not for white people to profit off of and use for their own sporting teams. The highest form of respect anyone can pay concerning these images of our Warriors is for us to have control over how and when they are used and profit form the use of them if we decide they are to be used. There are plenty of people on the res without healthcare, and actual REAL WARRIORS coming home from a REAL WAR that need help and support. Not to be faced with negative images connected to sports teams that make some rich white me even richer.
It's actually America's uses of missiles and drones. I am not sure if you have noticed, but the American military is one of the best examples of the "melting pot" that makes up this country. The things that happened to the Native tribes is unfortunately something that gets overlooked in this country, but atrocities have happened in almost every culture on the planet. You seem like a racist the way you refer to "the white man", and exclude the other cultures in the U.S. Government, which is ironic because you are upset about a "racist" image being used on a sports franchise.
Go figure it's a non indian guy getting upset by this logo.
Personally I like it, reminds me of when I was a child growing up and watching baseball and there's no racist intent behind it so I don't have a problem with it.
However if native americans started coming out in masses saying they were offended then I'd be fine with not using the logo. Personally I haven't seen that though.
What's next, animal rights groups protesting animals logos and mascots in sports.
Really I don't see what the fuss is all about. It looks cool and it's in no way meant to be offensive nor do I even see how it is offensive.
The bottom line is that this ball club is owned by white men and its not their image to use. IF Natives don't like it then the highest form of respect to pay us is to stop using it, respect our wishes in how its used or pay us the profits its making on merchandise its used on.
So you would prefer that no one outside of the Native American community use any likeness or cultural references involving the Native American people?
I guess that makes since if your goal is to get the nation as a whole to completely forget the existence of Native American people, their history, and their culture.
Actually yes Capone I would like it if all of the white people profiting off of NAtive culture in one way or another stop what they are doing. Paid back all the money they made selling our images. I would really like it if those white people supported NAtive owned businesses etc. That would actually better ensure our survival then some picture of an indian, thats not even what we look like, on some stupid ball cap.
So Smallz, this logo is offensive to your people, but you are willing to live with it if you can get a dollar or two out of it.?
@the good man- If there was a tribe that allowed their image and name to be used, for example the Seminoles, thats on that particular tribe to hash out. If they feel they are being treated fairly and their image is being respected and revered it should be their call. Like I said as long as its on that specific tribes terms. Now I don't like the idea of a NAtive Image representing a team owned by white men and in no way respectful of NAtive culture as a whole and NAtives as a people...i mean thats just me. In this case of the braves, they use a native image and no native has a say or sees a profit or has control ove rthat image. So I don't like it
@the good man- as far as your comment out "living with it" we live with white culture and history every day. I'd rather see money being made off of our images be going to us if its going to be made at all.Better still I'd rather only us use our image to represent our teams and tribes. Not white people who try to steal everything.
I grew up at a time when only blacks used terms like cool, dude, man, rock, roll, rap, chick, jazz, etc. I find it offensive when the whites cop the black action; fivin, jivin, strivin to be ‘cool’.
Please feel free to respond but I feel like this is a much bigger issue than a just a silly mascot. Many people don't understand the persistent stereotypes that are placed on Native people in media. This includes the dream catcher (made in china) you buy at a gas station or the Indians seen in movies for the last 100 years. On top of this absurd imagery, Native people can watch a mascot dancing around like a moron with feathers and fake leather doing a tomahawk chop. The other mascots in the leagues are animals and this is probably what prompted you to say, " What's next, animal rights groups protesting animals logos and mascots in sports." Why should an extremely diverse group of people be lumped into the same group as animals to sell some jerseys. This is all under the guise of honoring a group of people.
Let's talk about Mohawks. Many Army Rangers sport this kind of haircut, to honor the brave and fierce Indian, whose tactics and fighting skills were adapted by the military over 200 years ago. When Dwight Eisenhower met with the Rangers, who parachuted into Normandy ahead of the larger invasion force, notice some of their haircuts. So please, there are bigger fish to fry and to both of these CNN "contributors"; why not write about life on the reservations for present day Indians, instead of this drivel?
Ironically, the Mohawk hair cut was not employed by the Mohawks. The haircut came to be associated with them because of two movies that portrayed that error. Note that the Mohawks fought for the British in the American Revolutionary War and in the War of 1812. So there is irony both in adoption of the "Mohawk" haircut by American military personnel, and in any association with a tribe that fought against Americans twice.
For those who refer to the Braves as being owned by Ted Turner, he sold Turner Broadcasting/CNN and the Braves to Time Warner in the mid 90s. Time Warner sold the group to Liberty Media Group in 2007.
Hey you know who also doesn't own the Braves??? Native Americans!! So the white men who do own it should stop co-opting NAtive Images for their sport and profit.
Still, nobody is stopping Native Americans from purchasing shares of Liberty Media. It's a publicaly traded company on the NASDAQ. Go on, go buy yourself some.
I prefer to be referred to as an English American. I am confused why this is being centered around the "white man." I am pretty sure people of many races benefit from major league baseball, and in this case, the Braves. I believe there are very few people in our country that think Native Americans look like this in today's society. Not sure what the paranoia is all about.
I'm part Native American. I like the classic logo. Not offensive at all.
Has anyone actually asked any Indians if they are offended? This is nothing but bad journalism and needs to be stopped.
Where have you been? We natives have been complaining about the white man's treacherous and greedy behavior since 1492!
Yes, we find it offensive. If you attended a sporting event held on an Indian reservation and saw caricatures of your ethnic group being used to represent fierceness and wildness, wouldn't you be offended? Shouldn't Indians be recognized for our physicians, engineers, poets, teachers, musicians, economists, and philosophers in addition to being recognized for wearing feather headdresses and beating drums? The American Indian Movement, co-founded by Dennis Banks and Russell Means, has as one of its major strategic objectives the elimination of Indian stereotypical caricatures from the sporting teams of the dominant society. Yes we find those caricatures offensive. Does that answer your question?
So do you think a native Indian personally contacted CNN and cried about how they are being misrepresented and asked a story to be written about it? No. CNN and all other media outlets do nothing but stir feathers these days. That is what I am talking about. Since you say that you are Native, how are you hurt by this? How does this make you feel bad? Does this make you lose sleep at night? Or is this just another of those instances where our society allows for the degradation of Freedom of Speech because it hurts your feelings? No harm done. Natives were fierce and they were wild. They don't have a picture of an Indian who is an engineer such as today. They have a badge of honor of what they were. Deal with it and quit crying.
Fireblood, you asked: "If you attended a sporting event held on an Indian reservation and saw caricatures of your ethnic group being used to represent fierceness and wildness, wouldn't you be offended?"
I do. Well, they aren't on a res but I'm of Germanic & Celtic descent, so I could complain that the Vikings and Celtics cater to the stereotype of Scandinavians & Gaels being portrayed as violent thugs. But I don't. The idea is to have a mascot that says to the world "look out, world, this team is kickass!"
The Seminole tribe voted; they said they were not offended by the nickname; Florida State kept it.
Some other cities and states have done polls and the pro-vote was 90%, though some say not all voters were legitimate.
North Dakota as a whole voted to get rid of such a mascot.
Nothing wrong with the Braves logo. NO, it is not offensive or racist. What is offensive are the salaries of the MLB players who are scoring millions of dollars for playing baseball. It's a game, yes they play 163 in a season, pay them $1,000 per game, not $163,000 per game. PUKE!! to all professional sports. May as well eliminate all logos turn all team colors to?? Hum.. if you choose red then it's Indian, blue = gay, white = white man, black/brown = black man...oh...you see...its just pathetic to get your jock strap stuck up your butt crack over this...
Have you ever considered all the people that get employed because of the players on the field? the grounds crews. the concession people, stadium security, the guy walking around selling beer, valets, parking lot attendants, the people in the bars across the street, the people at stores selling merchandise, anybody related to the game. without the players, there would be none of these jobs. from an economic perspective, most of the contracts, not ALL, are reasonable.
stereotype of American Indians now a days would be a fat dude in a with an insulin syringe in one hand and a bottle of corn whiskey in the other
You can't ever forget Chief Noc-a-homa's sidekick: Princess Win-a-lotta. It was so ridiculous. They need to dump this logo.
"They would not do that to white people."
Ever heard of the "Fighting Irish"? It's not racism to celebrate a heritage in a light that portrays them as strong and proud. If anything, it teaches a new generation to recognize them as something to think highly of rather than look down on. I grew up in Georgia rooting for the Braves and was more interested in learning about true native american history and culture because of it.
and all of the Rebels and Cowboys schools and professional teams feature white guys running around with guns. Even the Texas Tech interim head coach wore a polo tonight saying "GUNS UP" on the back.
The difference there is that NAtives Don't own the Braves and have no crontrol in how its used or the profits made form the use of this image on merchandise. ITs owned by white people. So unless they are NAtive Arriors they really don't have the right. They need to find their own cultural icons and archetypes and stop using ours or respect our wishes concerning how these images are used.
Unfotunately, "Fighting Irish" and the little leprachaun with his fists up does promote the bad image of the Irish and Irish Americans as being unjustifiably pugnacious.
I get offended by the Chicago Cubs. Nothing to do with their logo, they just offend me......
Ole Miss/Texas Tech/UNLV Rebels (racism! like all white guys run around with guns...), Cleveland Browns, Notre Dame Fighting Irish, Boston Celtics, Oklahoma State/Dallas Cowboys (racism! more white guys with guns), New Orleans Saints (insensitive to the non-religious!), Seton Hall/Pittsburgh Pirates and Oakland Raiders (more violent white guys!), Pittsburgh Steelers (not everyone there works in a steel mill, insensitive!!!), San Diego Padres, Kansas City Royals (THIS IS A DEMOCRACY!), Milwaukee Brewers (everyone in Wisconsin is a drunk), etc....
People need to chill out about the Indians, Blackhawks, Braves, and even Redskins. You can get offended and claim stereotypes for tons of team names.
Don't forget the Vikings and the Canucks (a slang term for Canadian). I say the next pro sports team should be called the Angry White Guys, then we will all be square.
The Cleveland Browns were named after the original owner – Paul Brown
What is funny is that there are few Indians in the Southeast because of the forced death marches to Ok during the 1830's to free up land for the White settlers.
there is nothing wrong with the log – lets show indians as they are today – blackjack dealers, oh wait the indians in the casinos are janitors or maids.... the Atlanta Janitors – has a ring to it
There are weightier issues to be concerned about than a baseball cap. If the North American Native Indians in both Canada and the United States want to have a valid life, they need to get out of the Indian ghettos(the Reservations)for good and fully integrate into the rest of society. Only then will they have an important say and be a real part of our society. The Indian people must reclaim their heritage in this land by going mainstream and become a part of everything in North America.
This really is so petty given all the problems the world has. Does it really matter that much what the name of a team is, or if it somehow aligns itself with some ethnic group? I think we have bigger issues to worry about and those that are offended or worried about this really are a little to self absorbed. Get over it.
Who is really being hurt or psychologically damaged/scarred by this image? Honestly, people need to stop making everything about them. Polictical Correctness is turning into the biggest flop of the millennium and it will do us all in. Americans are thought of as all walking around in cowboy boots and cowboy hats. Germans are thought of and portrayed as all walking around in leder hosen. Mexicans and Spanish folks all sit against dusty walls on the street wearing brightly colored blankets and sombreros. AND...Oh My God !!! Indians are portrayed as having Mohawks and wearing moccasins. For the most part, none of these races actually do this or look like they are thought of. It doesn't hurt anyone I applaud the Braves for bringing the logo back. If anything, the Indians should take it as a compliment. It shows strength, commitment, and a fierce drive to be the best. How is that a bad thing? And as far as history goes, whatever happened to any of my relatives 100, 150, 200 years ago...well, it happened to them, not me. I'm not holding any 200 year old grudge. I've got a life to live, I'm not going to spend it insisting people make up for the past and forcing people to give up any free thought they might of had and force them to agree with mine.
This image isn't for white owned businesses to profit off of. IT doesn't belong to them. And you don't get to say whats acceptable in regards to how we are portrayed. The end.
I never thought this logo was particularly menacing or intimidating - he always looked like he was laughing more than anything else.
If you want a caricature, look up the way cartoonist Willard Mullin - creator of the Brooklyn Bum - used to depict the Milwaukee Braves: a flat-footed, pot-bellied hook-nosed Indian holding a stein of beer. And talking with a German accent.
Lou...you are right. My Grandfather designed the logo for the Milwaukee Braves. He designed it after a coworkers laugh. The coworker was not Indian. It was never meant as racist or a screaming Indian. It was all out of respect for indians. I am very proud that they are looking at bringing it back.
This wasn't your image to use. The owners of these ball clubs are not native.
When whites become a persecuted minority, then I might consider that to be racist.
It Irish have been a persecuted minority.
Education does go a long way.
And in light of the relationship and history between the UK and Ireland, I would be curious to know the Irish reaction if a UK sports team used an Irish mascot that was built on the UK stereotypes of the Irish. I don't imagine it would be a favorable response.
You're right. They are still treated as second class citizens and can't live in white neighborhoods because they are so discriminated against. Why, they could not even be elected to the Presidency because they are Irish. Being Irish is worse than being Black or Native American. Oh the humanity!
The Irish WERE oppressed but are no longer oppressed. That's a key point.
and the racism stopped when I got me lucky charms.
The British Anglicans and Protestants were the owners of the Irish land, with the Catholics as chattel. Just as Chinese grew wonderful crops on the little bits of land they were allowed in Red China, the Irish raised potatoes on their little bits of land. The Potato Famine hit. Those who did not leave for other nations such as the US (cf. Riverdance) often were left to starve by the British landowners. Two arguments were used: laissez-faire capitalism requires that we not interfere with binding capitalistic economic "laws," and the parallel Darwinian laws (on which some imposed the economic "law" of the "survival of the fittest") meant, even according to the "enlightened" non-religious scientist Darwin, that if the Irish died out from starvation, that had to be allowed to take its course.
On the other hand, I do find somewhat offensive the little Fighting Irish leprachaun as a mascot and logo with his fists up for a fight; it repeats the stereotype of the Irish as being exceptionally pugnacious.
White in White RACISM!! ! I guess the win win situation about white on white racism is that Whites are always winning. Because while they use negative images of other whites, white people are still profiting and in control of other white people's images! So you see this is the best kind of racism there is. ITs like nobody loses. EVER!
*White on* White. lol!
more american indians were killed than hitler's and stalin's jews combined.
Why didn't we let the illiterate south secede when we had the chance?
The biggest slaughters in history were in the 20th century. They were by the atheist Nazis of Germany and the atheist Communists of China and the Soviet Union.
RACIST AGAINST WHITES!
consider it white on white violence.
I'll start by stating that I am Native. I'll add that Native mascots are not the most serious issue facing Natives today. Native mascots however do contribute to Native stereotypes that exist in our society. Just read the posts. I love my culture/heritage . I work in an organization that serves Native people and I work with Native children on a regular basis. I see the impact of stereotypes on our community firsthand and it is most troubling to see the impact on our youth. These mascots are nothing more than cartoonish portrayals of a people and heritage that is the core of my being. They have a negative impact on our society and are unnecessary. My opinion.
Education goes a long way. I would venture to say that many of the posts supporting the stereotypes of Native Americans that we see as team names and logos are from people who know very little about Native American history.
Great point tateman. Those who are ignorant about American history are generally the first to tell people to "lighten up" when insensitivity to an "ethnic minority" rears its ugly head.
I remember all the black jokes and gay jokes I used to hear growing up. I remember a coffee shop named Sambos. Now, I never hear the jokes anymore, and Sambos is long gone. Why? Because people became more sensitive, and behaviors changed. What is so sad is, while many people will stand up against racist ideas against African Americans and hate agaisnt gays and lesbians, who will stand up against insensitive stereotypes about Native Americans? Sad.
a young adult indian is called a Brave. Imagine that, referring to a group of people as being brave. Imagine that, calling an american indian a brave. american indians are brave.
the idea and image is not for white people to use! Natives don't own the Atlanta Braves! No Natives are in control of or make profit of that image. White people are. And its not their image to use. There are so many white cultural icons or archetypes. they don't need to steel ours.
Step 1:Buy the franchise.
Step 2: Change the logo.
Step 3: ?
Step 4: profit.
Agreed! The smug racism on here is sickening - and embarrassing.
I am a Maine Black Bear. On behalf of all bears and animals in general, I am here to say that we're all offended by the use of animals as sports names and mascots. Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.
Maybe you are on the same level as an animal but Native Americans consider themselves to be thinking and feeling human beings.
It is precisely because animals are not humans of a particular group that there is not offense at the use of such mascots and logos, whether there should be offense taken at the use of names of human groups or not.
Someone brought up the point about who chooses team names. In the case of the Braves, the team name goes back to when they were in Boston. The team was called the Beaneaters until 1912, when the names was changed to the Braves because the team owner was a part of the political machine in Boston (Tammany Hall), which used an Indian Chief as their symbol. Maybe some reference to the Boston Tea Party I am guessing.
I'm prtty sure no actual NAtive Americans owned this team nor do NAtives profit from the use of the NAtive Warrior as their logo. Also Tammany Hall was in NEw York...unless there was 2 Tammany Halls.
Tammy Hall was a political organization in New York of which the original founder of the Boston Braves was a member of.
Jim Thorpe probably found the logo to be pretty profitable...that's the nice thing about baseball, it's open to all races including African Americans, and Latinos (which includes a lot of Native Americans also).
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