Braves reject 'screaming Indian' logo
By Moni Basu, CNN
Atlanta (CNN) – In the end, the Braves are keeping with tradition - as in the signature 'A' that is the team's logo.
MLB.com posted a photo of the new navy blue batting practice caps with a red and white scripted 'A.' The team will wear those hats at spring training, which starts Tuesday.
The Braves said a decision on the batting caps had not been made yet when a potential design was leaked several weeks ago. That design drew ire for its "screaming Indian" logo.
"I like the selection we made this year," Braves President John Schuerholz said in a statement Monday. "We had a variety of choices that we looked at, some more thoroughly than others. But at the end, we liked this one."
But writer Paul Lukas of ESPN's Uni Watch blog, who broke the news of the cap design in December, wasn't buying the Braves' statement. He suggested the Braves withdrew the design because of the furor it caused.
"In other words, the Braves are claiming that they were never committed to the Indian head cap to begin with," Lukas wrote. "But that doesn't ring true.
"The Indian head cap has been shown for months in the official MLB Style Guide and is still shown there right now," Lukas wrote. "It's also shown in the new New Era catalog. All signs indicate that the Braves fully intended to go with the Indian design until the recent controversy caused them to have second thoughts.
Whew. That was certainly the reaction for some Americans, especially Native American groups that were highly critical of the screaming Indian logo.
Kevin Gover, director of the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of the American Indian, said in December that the use of the screaming Indian logo would be going backward.
"What this does is contribute to the casual racism native people are subjected to in our society," said Gover, a member of the Pawnee Nation.
The screaming Indian is an image of an imaginary Indian, Gover said. It and other stereotypical sports mascots, he said, do not portray Native Americans for who they truly are.
The Indian was part of the Braves logo when the team moved to Atlanta from Milwaukee in 1966. It was retired in 1989.
The team also had a mascot, Chief Noc-a-Homa (knock a homer), who wore Native American dress and war paint.
But not everyone agreed with the Braves' decision. Twitter had these comments Monday afternoon:
https://twitter.com/ADeVoll17/status/301059315261915136
And this one:
Others just wanted a piece of the controversy:
Debate over sports mascots is, of course, not new. U.S. professional and collegiate sports teams have used Native American logos and names for years. Baseball's Cleveland Indians, for instance, continue to feature a smiling Indian dubbed Chief Wahoo, criticized as a racist caricature.
Sometimes this happens with the blessing of Native American tribes, and other times – like with the NFL's Washington Redskins, a term that many feel advances a demeaning stereotype – they have been denounced as racial slurs.
The NCAA imposes a ban on offensive Native American mascots and last year, voters dumped the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux mascot. Florida State University's use of Seminole imagery is allowed because it is supported by the the state's Seminole Tribe.
About In America
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Redskins name should be changed, bottom line. It IS wrong.
Roger Goodell loves to hold those feel good townhall-style Q&A meetings with fans. I would love to see the look on his face and hear his response when someone asks him if he feels the Redskins name is derogatory and should be changed?
White man visit long enough.....now go home.
Just curious, how many people just can't wait to hear Braves fans do the chop chant again? Isn't it just great that Deion Sanders brought that to the Braves from Florida State?
I feel that the team names of Braves, Indians, and Redskins are paying tribute to the Native Americans. We don't see any honor for the Native Americans. We should have a day honoring the greats like Geronimo and other famous Native Americans out there. I find that their culture is a very interesting one for how they knew how to hunt their food, build the tee=pees, etc.
Just change the name already....
Amazing how team names and logos have been around for many, many years with no one whining they are offended by them but now all of a sudden with this PC garbage, everyone is offended by everything. Leave all of the team names and logos alone, quit the PC garbage and quit all of this fake "I am offended" garbage.
You obviously do not know much history about the logo subject. It's been around and protested by American Indian people for years and years – way before your fave PC lingo. But golly gee whiz, no one considers Indian people's opinions to be recognized – even now. We made treaties with the Europeans for the land you live on – not the right to use our names as your fodder to be used or abused at will. PC has nothing to do with it – but again as I have said – look at all the negativity that comes out when the subject is mentioned in an article (above). That's offensive and shows the underlying racism that can't be ignored.
Isn't the correct term "Native American"? I find your terminology offensive.
I crack up when I read some of these comments. Makes me wonder how they would feel if we renamed the Washington Football team to Washington PastyWhiteboys or called the Falcons the Atlanta Rednecks. I grew up being told constantly to get back on the reservation and sadly the ones saying it are now complaining that my tribe members have more than they do. Suck it up we are all the same in Gods eyes.
First off....
The only proper name to give to the Redskins in renaming them will be the Hogs. Firstly, it reflects a strong time in their history and people still dress up as pigs in Sunday dresses to reflect that glorious time in Redskins history. II would recommend that a big picture of the Capital Building be placed on the helmet to reflect the true hogs eating from the trough in Washington.
As for changing the name of the Falcons to Rednecks, why not change the name of the Braves to the Rednecks? Heck, you can even make it Rednex if that isn't an existing copyright by the 90s band.
Chief, you are right; the white community has never shown much respect or concern about native Americans. Hopefully, team name changes will be more appropriate and less racist. But, being raised on the old names, I'll always be a bit nostalgic when I see the Cleveland, Atlanta, and Washington scoreboards.
Well on behalf of Snapping Turtles and Terrapins everywhere, I can say we are truly offended by the mascot for the Univeristy of Maryland. It underminds our dignity.
What dignity? Turtles, snapping turtles, is the perfect name for U of Maryland.
As Native American, I'm for a "good looking" Indian Mascot not that stupid looking Chief Wahoo – Cleveland Indians – mascot with yellow teeth. Now that's derogatory towards Native Americans.
I wish someone would tell the State of Michigan, Office of Civil Rights that a Fighting Huron was a good thing. In 1991 Michigan forever lost this vital link with its Native American past. Despite the objections of the Chief of the Huron Wyandottte tribe, students and alumni like myself and over the objections of historians who knew the truth: that Huron Indians – and yes warriors had camped out on the shores of the river near what is now university property and at what was then a paper mill. One student, just one, filed a complaint, the complaint was heard and a discriminatory, biased and racist Civil Rights Commission issued an edict that would forever change my native Michigan. Native Americans were gone from logos – forever. The Civil Rights Commission decreed that from then onwards all universities receiving state funding must select new logos – desecrating the Native American heritage. Now at EMU we have a stupid bird as the symbol of our teams. A BIRD. The Emu has NOTHING to do with Michigan, not with Ypsilanti and not with the University. Emus are native to Australia, not to Michigan. Sadly Native Huron people – descendents of Native Americans from the area – stood up before the EMU Board of Regents and declared publicly their opposition to taking the Fighting Huron away from the university. This is a sad state of affairs. The Fighting Huron was a symbol of honor which brought with it pride. The Michigan CRC should have instructed schools to teach the history of the native people that lived there, to share that at each and every game, to insure children new about both the peaceable and bellicose nature of Michigan's native peoples and the decimation, dispossession and dishonor they experienced.
I like your comment. Don't forget about the Central Michigan University Chippewas. I was raised in Mt. Pleasant and this is one that has been respectful of my tribe. Not a problem using a tribes name but definitely not respectful to use the derogatory terms that have been associated with the Native people of this country.
Shining example of how dangerous liberalism is...
Political "correctness" (a misnomer if I ever saw one) will be the downfall of this nation. The socio-liberal wingnuts have nearly brought the US to its knees financially, morally, ethically, and soon militarily, if Oblamer and his thugs have their way in D.C.
By now, some of the 53% who voted for him are beginning to see the error of their ways. Hopefully, we can in the near future rid ourselves of this blight on our freedoms and independence. Only time will reveal the outcome.
I second that 'good looking' Indian suggestion – only to have that guy play the President in a movie where he straightens out this spoiled disrespectful country!
Odd but none of the indians I know are that stupid.
more political correctness running amok. with a failing economy, a dictator to be in the white house, and world wide assault on freedom, sports logos are not i mportant.
get a life people
The fact that you don't even know what a real dictator is makes any opinion by you laughable.
U 2 get a lifer – whatcha reading this for then? Go out and save the world. Good luck!
I guess I can live with this but the Smiling Chef on every Pizza box in America? He is an insult to my Italian heritage...Be Gone Big Guy!
Maybe smiling Chef Boyardee with big teeth or screaming Chef Boyardee?
all sports teams that are using an american indian logo or team name should drop those names/logos and completely
get away from them. why would they want a team name/logo of a group that doesn't want the recognition?
Exactly! Not that kind of beer drinking hootin' & hollerin' recognition anyway.
We as students and graduates of FSU are very proud of the Seminole Indians and the part they play with our University. I was genuinly pleased and proud to see members of the Seminole tribe as a part of my graduation ceremony; it was awesome and I would be very sad indeed if they were to separate themselves from FSU.
I 'genuinly' hope that you did not graduate with a degree in English...
Americans generally want minority groups to toughen up and not spoil our mindless "fun", but when a majority group is offended things change so fast it'll make your head spin. In my small town the school teams were called the Blue Devils. Well, that was just too offensive for a few local Christians and suddenly we were the Blue Tornadoes without so much as a mention in the local paper. Nobody complained that THEY were being too PC!
The Mule, do you fly a confederate flag at home?
I am from North Carolina and I remember years ago some groups even more fundamentalist that my Southern Baptist upbringing made a move the change the mascot for Wake Forest and Duke – Demon Deacons and Blue Devils respectively. The movement was DOA. I guess b\c they were two popular universities (Duke is 'Harvard of the South') it just never gained traction.
I believe dear ole' UVa has an edge on Duke in academics and law, noting your Ivy league reference to Duke...
But I will say this... Duke and UVa are the best academic/law/medical schools in the south, bar-none.
America, Home of the "free", Land of the offended.
America, land of Genocide, war, and people who vote for a guy who legalizes drone strikes on them.
YEEEHAW BARAAACK OBAMA
Nik – the police have the right to shoot American citizens too. But I don't hear any rightwingnuts screaming about that. So the president can go after Americans who are aiding and abetting the people who are trying to kill Americans. Can anyone see anything wrong with that?
People like to forget about how they reacted towards the "Patriot Act."
Amazing how they support a similar policy.
As far as I'm concerned, Nativie American culture ceased to exist when the US Congress attached a profit motive to it by allowing tribes to build casinos instead of providing the funds required under previous treaties. The Native Americans started culling their tribe membership so there were fewer and fewer members with whom to share the profits. In the tribe near my home, they have disenrolled several previous council heads, purely for political/financial reasons. Being a Native American is no longer determined by one's ancestors, but by political connections. They may as change the name to the "Atlanta Blackjack Dealers." It would be more accurate than the "Braves."
Scarf, if you are going to reference history, perhaps you should go back a little further. If those problems would have been addressed, there wouldn't be any casinos. When you don't show respect to another people, sooner or later it's going to come back to you. It's called karma.
Are you saying the Native Americans showed no respect to the white man, so bad karma in the form of casinos hit them? My point is that the Native Americans sold out their own culture for casinos instead of insisting that Congress fulfill its obligations to them under past treaties.
Neil & scarf – besides that the U.S. still considers most tribes like 'wards' of the government in that the Federal government (BIA especially) still has a tight hold on the politics of tribal government affairs whether officially or underhandedly. As far as casinos are concerned, not all tribes have casinos or money-making ones and not all enrolled Indiani people enjoy profits. Plus every state in the union is constantly trying to get their hands on those casinos or coming up with non-Indian casions of their own. Not all is what it seems.
Reading a lot of the post here, I can see that some whites will have problems adjusting to the new world. What ever happened to the good old days when white people could call anybody any name they chose and nothing was said?
Where no one of color dared look them in the eye. Where Chinese were chinks, where blacks were spear chuckers etc. Then we had your wet backs, and Injuns. And all was right with the world. To white people who care to listen; generally (Even though you may not agree) there is generally a basis for peoples feelings. They don't just make it up.
And If you still don't get it, then think about how strongly whites feel about what they refer to as " Reverse discrimination. OMG look out when whites feel discriminated against. Whole parties spring up over night.
Native Americans, American Indians, these names are incorrect. They weren't American anything until we stamped them with it. If there is ANY race of people, not tribe, race, that deserves whatever they can get from the federal government, I believe it should be these people. No treaty ever honored, we killed as many as we could, we marched them from their homes and put them on worthless pieces of land and never compensated them for it. I am white and female. Sure blacks were torn from their homes to be sold to traders, but that happened because of the greed of their OWN people. WE tried to wipe out the indians and I think we should pay for it. If they allow it to be corrupted then that is THEIR problem. We haven't done enough for any Indian tribe on our soil and have done too much for the Africans that are here.
gross! I find your entire line of thought disgusting. A minority group of people not having the means to go head to head with those in power and you claim it's their fault? you claim slavery is their fault? With that line of logic, I guess I should add all you obese, lazy, illiterate bigots deserve diabetes, heart problems, and social ridicule because you don't know the difference between a vegetable and sugar coated ketchup for your deep fried twinkies? Humanity is lost on inbred Americans
The only reason the "Native Americans" were ever called Indians were because good ol Chris Columbus thought he landed in India when he sailed out of Spain. As for Native's what about the Spanish (later to be called Mexicans) who lived in the western states. I have neighbors who are Indian from India and my other white neighbor told him while we were playing cards "I'm Indian too....half Cherokee" 🙂 The India Indian should be the only ones who are offended that their race got put on another one so different from them.
Maybe every team should just have a logo with a man in a pink tutu. That would would probably make you PC liberal freaks more than happy.....
John, we are all not PC. We still have non race related names for special occasions, they just cannot be mentioned here.
This decision makes me really disgusted. I'm tired of being sensitive about an icon that wasn't disrespectful in the first place. Braves, you should change your names because you're not worthy of being called Brave.
You said it! Let's call them the PCs from now on. I don't feel insulted by the Fighting Irish... If I would a Native American I would be proud that our warrior were thought highly enough of to be used as a mascot.
Not the way a lot of non-Indians handle it. You just don't realize the racial undertones behind the 'mascot' image that comes out. Look at some of the conversations in this blog. Since sports fans can't handle Indian mascot names respectfully – only American Indian teams should have the right to use those names if desired.
Here we go all the white/black Americans with 1/64th Native American blood come in and give their opinions. HEY GUESS WHAT, YOU ARE NOT NATIVE AMERICANS.
Really CNN keep deleting my comments. Why don't you do a story about the GENOCIDE which took place in the United States of America? No way you aren't going to do that. You are going to continue to push bad coverage of the Middle East and India without looking at the crimes of Americans.
Hey Nik, good observation. We are all American's.
Please, if we didn't do it, Spain, France or England would have. The world's history is littered with stories of "genocide" and mass killings, it's called war. The Native Americans killed each other and committed mass genocide between their tribes. No one nation or tribe can claim pure innocence. Why? Those that did are no longer around because they failed. It's time for Native Americans to assimilate and stop breeding the hate that is generated from a life of living removed from civilization with their own laws and police. History is written by the victors, remember that.
Also remember, 'what goes around, comes around,' and boy oh boy, is it coming fast for America. Open your closed eyes!
I agree Neal. The 'wannabe' Indians I have run into are very adament about their views of being Indian when they themselves have never lived in an Indian community or on a reservation or amongst Indian people. If they had, they would not be spouting off so much about their 'Indian' views. When in reality most of the time those views come from a completely assimulated white cultural background.
I grew up with the Kumeyaay Indians of San Diego and love the people and culture. I am not Native American, but appreciated the kindness and warmth many had. This is before the casinos open the door for them as San Diego left them on the Viejas, Barona, Sycaun, and other various small plots of undesired land deep in our mountains. They are not complainers so I don't see the support of getting rid of the mascot, BEING IT IS ONLY A MASCOT, not a ploy to make fun of anyone. BTW, I am native Hawaiian. Like everyone else, WE ARE HUMANS……and American. Nothing special, nothing above or below anyone. Just an American who wants to help others out.
Good luck not trying to offend someone. Sheesh, this world is full of a bunch of whiney babies! Everyone's a winner these days right? Give me a break, if you aren't first, you lost, which makes you a loser. Get over it!
Political Correctness = The Demise of America
Oh wait, I just offended the PC police.
No Mike, the demise of America started when those white guys, I mean Europeans, walked on this land now called America and started killing people...
Sounds like you got offended by the scrapped hat logo then. Since when is "not being offended" an inherent right? If you are, for example, offended by a commerical, then change the channel, or don't buy what product they are selling. Political Correctness "offends" me.
Well Mike, you are just going to have to live with it. You have had your way for 400 years. Things are a little different now. If you don't like it, change the channel.
Neal, man, don't be so naive. Nations have been conquering others since time immemorial, killing, interbreeding, assimilating, exiling, discouraging, oppressing and deleting the conquered. The USA is no different. It has conquered; it may be conquered. It's just human nature to support a group of which you are a memeber and oppose a group of which you are not. The Indians were conquered, plain and simple – the conquerers understandably display no other tendencies than others in history. The Indians will eventually be completely assimilated and the sensitivities will disappear. We can't go back in time – if we could, would we force England to give back the land to the Saxons and the Angles and get rid of those nasty Normans?
More specifically they would be the "Calf boys".... 😉
all of these examples of using European cultural symbols do not touch on the issues... if you want to use a more accurate European symbol, let's envision a polish born "screamin'-Jew", whose appearance is one of suffering from starvation, tattooed with a number and wearing a striped prison outfit... think anyone would get offended?
I realize that to expect America to wake up and realize what's really happened is hoping a bit much, but you could at last TRY to act like you have SOME level of awareness as to the real issues here. sigh. guess not.
The logo is not called the "Screaming Indian" by anybody other than the media. That is not an official name.
That is not a proper analogy. If it was a logo featuring a drunken Injun staggering with a cart full of re-cyled bottles, then I could see the angst. But in the Braves' case, there is no intent to denigrate, there is no tone of disgust, there is no motive of humiliation. Quite the contrary – there is simply a desire to honour a valiant, fallen opponent. The brave warrior (called a brave) remains a spectacular example of valour. Granted, they lost – but they were sure brave nonetheless. If a baseball team says "Hey, we think they were terrific, we're going to emulate them!" what the hell is the bloody problem?
That's the best news I have heard today.
Since this is the south we are talking about, why not their own history? Just make the logo the letters KKK.
Because that isn't a respected culture. Sports teams names that are taken from Native tribes are out of respect. Unlike what many here seem to think.
Well then, it must be OK.
And who says it isn't a respected culture?
this is fun – IF the naming of sports teams after Indians was out of RESPECT – then why do owners/some fans get all upset and mouthy when INDIAN people as a whole (tribes) object to names that bring DISREPCTFUL actions at those games, etc, Doesn't that sound like Indian people are being treated as peons? Just everyone stop saying it is out of respect and realize that we don't want it used PERIOD!
Love it! Or even Trail of Tears supporters.
What do you think you know about the KKK? Why is it that a hate group has to be representative of everyone in the South? Your comment is misguided and unappreciated.
Please go to Atlanta and look for KKK members. If you run into a population dominated by African Americans, you made it to Atlanta. I don't understand the KKK theory since it isn't really a white town.
do you think those living in Ireland would be offended if the English used degrading Irish symbols... google I.R.A. and you will find you are not really Irish, you are American with Irish ancestors. duh. The 'real' Irish are very touchy about these things, and to this day seek to take revenge on the English Monarchy... hello?
The I.R.A. does not represent a significant portion of Ireland. They only represent the radical catholic faction who hated the protestants, who they considered collaborators with the English invaders.
"I don't see what's so wrong with being racist," says racist man.
I do believe a racist remark or action is in some way derogatory to the people of that race. So tell me how a screaming Indian on a BRAVES cap is anyway derogatory? Personally I don't care one way or another but I think people in general go out of their way to find something to complain about and all they really need to do is just look in the mirror.
Loved the screaming onion, link to the birthplace, growing up in Hotlanta.
Don't speak common sense in here. You'll offend people
SO as a Greek, I should be offended by sorority and frat toga parties and those people calling themselves "Greeks" and promoting a culture of partying and drinking becuase that's truly what "Greeks" are. And, while I'm at it I would really like it if the college teams would get rid of the trojans and the spartans too because they are misrepresenting the culture as well. K. Thanks.
The logo is dumb and I'm glad that they decided not to use it. But people will argue against Native names of any type in any sport.
So are the Fighting Aristotles off the list too? As a former member of a Greek Fraternity in college I developed a particular appreciation for the Greeks and have a framed certificate on my office wall that has Greek writing on it that is a treasure. Opah!
No but there is a fighting irishman, and he offends me... sort of. well not really, but he always seems to get a pass.
Truthbetold. So why is dumb to have a smiling "Greek" versus smiling Chief Wahoo mascot?
now you're getting it .... duh – if you value yourself as a people and not patry loving drunks ....
People never cease to amaze me. Insensitive? Nonsense. Idiots wasting time? Yep
U 2 – eh?
If you can give back the hundreds of millions of acres of land and bring back the 12 million lives you took, I'm sure they wouldn't care what you called your sports teams.
Sure. Just as soon as those Native tribes give back the land they achieved through wars with other tribes and bring back those people they killed as well. How absolutely silly...
I'm sorry to inform you that humans have killed humans and took land and resources as long as we've been on this earth. Everyone alive has ancestors who were killed, pillaged, etc.
that's because human kind keeps picking and bullying on each other until the wars/land grabs start .... oh yeah, but that's okay because we just can't help ourselves in this FREE (?) country .... keep on picking ....
Now that, as unrealistic as it is, is a better message than this entire story and the entire Braves club. Perhaps they can become the Atlanta Wet Melba Toasts. So, were the 19th century indian braves NOT formidable, brave and respected warriors? Hmmmm
Start sharing some casino money,and we'll start talking name change,we better start giving African Americans billions of tax free dollars too,because after all there were slaves at on point in history!! You fool,at what point is enough,enough!
The Indian casinos are regulated by Native American Gaming Association & its federal regulations to make sure that the Indians pay taxes..yes Federal and State taxes. We also have non Indians who work for us so in reality, the Indian casinos do give it back to society. Before you make an ignorant comment, you should work for an Indian casino or research it.
Sorry, that's not how it works. If everyone gave up the land that their ancestors took from someone else, nobody would have any place to live. That includes Native American tribes who were constantly at war with each other and the victor either destroy the others' culture or assimilated them until it was non-existant.
Who are the "you" and "they" you refer to? The people who took the land died a century ago, as did the people from whom it was taken. Nobody alive today did any taking, and nobody alive today lost anything. Nobody owes anyone anything.
And the seminoles weren't seminoles??? Braves doesn't even refer to a specific tribe. The fighting irish refers to a specific subset of the white race and implies they are small, aggressive drunks who wear green. Is that not racism too? Its only a mascot...get over it.
Um, Mexicans are a near majority now.
Anybody who is non White is considered a "minority". You should know that from the forms you fill out.
I have the perfect solution....The Atlanta Casinos
Great Idea! The logo can be Donald Trump cartoon character. Wow – I can just see it now.
The people who are offended by the logo are probably the same people while at the game are doing the tomahawk chop and saying "oooooh oh oh ooooooh! oooh ooooh oh oooh!"
Rather unlikely.
I live here in Detroit and I shudder to think what will happen when PETA wants to eliminate the Lions and Tigers. Get rid of the Bears and Eagles as well. And if there is any group that should take offense to being branded a bunch of bumbling idiots who can do nothing it's the Washingotn Senators.
Mark Peptone is not going to be happy.
show us one white person that has ever said that.
Maybe you should read the Bohanon tweet again?
refers Scott to this entire thread, including his own post. implicit. snap!
I am american indian and I am not offended by the maligned screaming indian. It is done in the name of sportmanship and not meant to disparrage american indians. I regularly watch the Braves play and enjoy all the hoopla that goes along with the team name. Geaux Braves !!
Thanks for the post. I have Cherokee blood and it doesn't bother me either. What DOES bother me is when people that are part of this spend so much money and resources to wage such a MEANINGLESS fight (to me) when so many HUMAN BEINGS everywhere have REAL problems and face ACTUAL oppression and harm with NOBODY in THEIR corner.
But hey...I guess "If it's not going on in MY TRIBE, it ain't happening..." Eh?
I agree with you completely. And I wonder how many of these "concerned" individuals have ever given a penny or lent a hand to a Native Indian cause.
I don't know . . thank God those two journalists had the courage to stand up and fight the oppression of Jamaicans by the evil Volkswagen corporation. Sticky bun come soon indeed!
Thank you. I get tired of hearing from non-natives about what Native Indians want or think is racist. To me that is more offensive than a mascot.
Why do you call yourself 'squaw?' That is terribly demeaning unless you meant it to be. The actions at the games stem from a dreadful era in this country. It's just white-washed out now so that no one realizes it and thinks it just fine to do that. For instance, American Indian people in general no longer use the term 'squaw' because it has been deemed in Indian culture to be a word that is vulgar regarding Indian women. Not good.
Nice to hear our enlightened Native American friends talk rationally. Racism has nothing to do with sports logos on hats. I have a Cleavland Indians ball cap that is one of my favorites and it looks cool! Truth is, a so called Screaming Brave in historical terms is someone you don't want to run into out in the forest who is preparing to kick your butt, take body parts and really mess you up. Sounds like a dominating force to me and a really appropriate image for a sports logo. I too am tired of this PC world. Ken Grover needs to "Get Over It".
Sorry kid, but I agree with you about the mascots. The Native Americans in this coutry don't deserve a warrior of any kind as their mascot. It would be more accurate if the braves were to change their logo to a fat drunk guy sitting in a gutter.
Please explain how the name "seminole" is disparaging to the "seminoles"....or the "Braves" for that matter. Its a far cry from "idiots"....poor argument on your part.
You are mistaken the Indians for the Braves fans who cried "I wanna my Indian mascot back....wah"!
If it is so obviously racist then why do many Native Americans disagree with you?
good point. and they ended up that way how?
In an effort to improve the livelihoods of Native Americans, the US government permitted tribes to run casinos. Now many Native Americans receive a small check from their casino earnings, and do not have to work. Many of them are unmotivated to do anything because they don’t have to, and thus you have high rates of alcoholism and poverty. There's no question that the US government owes them a living for the things that happened in the past, but they're doing this to themselves.
How come the Yankees, Brewers, Phillies, don't have a "white" mascot?
Native Americans are offended so let's give them the respect and change the name. We can at least do that because we did take their land from them. The mascot Patriots isn't bad, if it was New England Rednecks; that's bad.
How about the fighting irish then? hardly a nice depiction of white people of irish descent...
Now the cap looks like it belongs to the Alabama Crimson Tide.
Why? What does a Brave look like, then, if not a screaming indian?
The last paragraph of this article – lousy explanation – One group is voting for change and another has support so they keep the name. UND has fought for 10 years to keep the name and logo (that was created by a sioux member of the local tribe) The NCAA is forcing the change as they agreed to allow schools to keep the name if local tribes were fine with the names. In the North Dakota situation one of the tribes will not vote on the issue – as it is not a tribal issue – so as there is no voted support – which there is from the other local tribe – NCAA has forced them to end there usage of the name. which will cost them thousands(tens of, hundreds of) of dollars (i havent seen and estimate but its going to be pretty pricey) to replace. I think we are going to lose the history and maybe that is the goal here – sad.
Because Vikings and Irish were not exploited and had their lands stolen from them, only to have their image to be exploited more.
Everyone has undergone persecution at some point in their history....everyone. "White" isn't even specific....how many sub-cultures can be filed under "white"? Dozens at least. As long as people have been around there has been killing and abuse. No one is clear from that stain.
In most of the world native people's are not held to the esteem that they are here. Most Americans are proud of the drop of indian blood they have (or pretend they have). That we celebrate today the bravery and ferocity of Native American warriors in our sports teams is somehow not PC is to infer that letting their heritage slip into obscurity is. The screaming warrior is a symbol of a man going into battle about to give his all, that the PC police think that is an unacceptable depiction shows how little they know or respect Native Americans or their history,
How do you think the Cow Boys feel? They should change it to Bull Boys, more manly.
Might as well, they (Cowboys) didn't make to the playoffs. lol!
"pointless1" one said:
"...Why not use a screaming white redneck with his teeth missing as a mascot? More fitting personally..."
Now, if you'd ad 'obese' and 'lotsa-guns', you'd of really nailed it.
Why don't every team change their name to the "Humans"? That way no one will complain ever again. And life will be bland and boring. Just how the PC junkies like it...
Sorry to break it to you but there are already countless "white" mascots and they don't bother us in the slightest.
How come the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Giants don't have a "whooping white" guy as a mascot?
We don't care because we are the majority. You might care if you were the minority and you felt that your ancestry was being portrayed in an incorrect way. (As if that hasn't happened millions of times by white people already!).
So the Fighting Irish mascot portrays an accurate depiction of an Irish person? Come on man...get out of here with that. If you are depending on mascots to teach history then you've got bigger problems as a country.
Typical media bias when the writer claims that "many" feel the Washington Redskins name advances a stereotype. "Many" in the media feel that way, but "many" in the public simply do not. Robert Griffin III's Washington REDSKINS jersey was the top-selling NFL football jersey in 2012, but clearly journalists with agendas are not interested in facts, only teaming up with other journalists to advance an agenda. Sorry, but the Redskins name isn't going anywhere!
Actually, people are not buying the RG3 jerseys because it's a Redskins jersey. In fact, the "Redskins" name on the jersey is barely large enough to read from a few feet away. Besides, the argument that so many RG3 jerseys are sold does not detract from the fact that the term is indeed racist and bigoted. I myself am a fan of the team and RG3, but am not a fan of the team's name. It will be changed to the Washington Warriors soon enough and Washington fans will still be Washington fans.
How is the name "Washington Warriors" any different? How is in still not racist??? It's obvious that it still implies Indians are the mascot. Some I am sure would state that it assumes and implies that all Native Americans do/did is fight and wage war on each other. Otherwise, they are saying that stereotyping their race is OK if they get to choose the wording!
@TOTC: "Redskin" is a derogatory term, "warrior" is not. Try to understand the difference.
No, but it should.
Just drop the use of any indian references. Let them slip in to obscurity.
The world has gone crazy. It seems that every group is a special interest group any more. Political correctness continues to be a smoke screen of self importance. We are too introspective in this day and age. Life just isnt this serious.
This PC crap is ridiculous. Our Country has turned into a BUNCH OF WIMPS.
Yeah, it was much better when racists had freedom to smear anyoe they wished!
Two ways of looking at this:
1 – If there were a team (in America) called The Maccabites, it would be fine. Ancient Judean warriors who liberated their land from Greek occupation. Militia who conducted raids and defeated a formidable enemy.
2 – A team called "The Yids," where every time they hit a home run, the audience would yell "mazel tov" and break out into a hora when Hava Nagila is played on the PA.
I like to think that the screaming warrior and the name "The Braves" are more in admiration of a proud and fierce (not to mention the first) American culture.
...or you could have just used the example of the ND Irish. A wee little man with a green outfit and green bowler hat and a red hair beard......fighting......and presumably drunk of course.
Really?
The perfect solution would be to combine letters and numbers to creat a name who could poosible be offended. Perhaps the Zip codes the Atlanta 30303's. but then sesamie streets " the count" might not like it. or the Oakland H8ers thats not even that far off from their curret names
Political correctness is doing more damage to minorities than good.
Agreed. It gets everyone fired up over nothing.
political correctness? it is sad how the white's continue to show such immunity to knowledge and reality..
maybe if your ancestors were treated like the first nations were; genocide, slaughter of women and children, concentration camps, perpetual non-citizens for generations, raped, sodomized and robbed of language and culture and family in the residential schools ran by the "screamin-catholics", required 'permits' to leave the 'res' up until modern times, governments that don't even keep the treaties they signed up until this day, in many cases huge portions of the children scooped up and sent to white families to raise without any regard to loss of language, culture, family connection...
BTW – I am not native, fyi
Not entirely disagreeing with you but talk to the Scots. Essentially the same treatment except for reservations.
Think about the Trojan or Spartan mascots. We respect the heritage of those badass civilizations. We're aspiring to play a given sport with the same amount of intensity and coolness that they used in life. No disrespect to Native Americans.
As a person of Polish decent, I would think it awesome if say the Brewers renamed themselves to the Milwaukee Polacks in honor of the large Polish population. You could have pierogies rolling around on the field instead of sausages and you could sell gag gifts in the concession stands like the Polish calculator my Dad kept in the house and prodle displayed to anyone who would come over. It was a pencil with an electric cord attached to it. People need to lighten up. It is a sports team not a political movement. When you have a politician going around saying we should round up all the indians and lock them up, then we have a real problem. A logo is just a representation and onyl carries greater meaning when people with too much time on their hands worry about something that makes little sense.
all of these examples of using European cultural symbols do not touch on the issues... if you want to use a more accurate European symbol, let's envision a polish born "screamin'-Jew", whose appearance is one of suffering from starvation, tattooed with a number and wearing a striped prison outfit... think anyone would get offended?
I realize that to expect America to wake up and realize what's really happening is hoping a bit much, but you could at last TRY to act like you have SOME level of awareness as to the real issues here. sigh. guess not.
or of someone dressed in a leprechaun outfit prancing around on a field.
That would be a good name for a Hockey team too, except for the fact that they all died during Spring training!
FINALLY!!! It took a Comment section to provide some sound judgement and a touch of research journalism. CNN will have you removed for factual comments like that.
The Fighting Irish. The Cowboys. These are charicatures in Sports. No problem. Well, the Redskins could be skating a fine line. It's sad to go back to High School or even college and see your mascotts are now replaced with something ridiculous. The Native American culture has pride in their heritage and, when done right (FSU), it brings something positive.
How about the Syracuse Orangemen changing name to The Orange. How pus*y is that!!!!? Hah! They were under pressure from Orange-American rights groups and they fell apart like a Mexican briefcase.
In the case of SU, it wasn't the "orange" that was the problem since no minority can claim that color. It was feminism over the "man" part of the name. Same idea...totally stupid and childish.
Couldn't the female teams call themselves the "Lady Orangemen" like Tennessee or even the "Orangewomen"?
Totally agree. Hypersensitive society. S.U. should have kept Orangemen for the Men and then, to appease the few that had issues, only changed it to The Orange for the female sports. But, hey, that's just too logical to make sense.
"Wah, Wah, I want my Indian logo back..wah..wah" chants the Braves fans. Meanwhile, North Korea is testing nuclear bombs as a warning against the U.S. and other countries. Which one is more important to the Americans..duh.
That's it! You hit on a great idea. "The Atlanta Brave Koreans"! Perfect.
Now let's work on a logo.
We all know that's not going to happen. Only the Indians have to be mascots. Asians are not cool mascots. They just make great food.
That's a red herring if I've ever seen one.
Did you really just refer to those fish in a derogatory way and actually call them 'red'? Now THAT's offensive.
I bet you prefer WHITE fish on your bagels. Nice, really nice.
Because we can only have one active story at a time.
Can't chew gum and walk at the same time?
What Atlanta should do...
Change the image to a more traditional "brave", in an authentic garb. A noble image...
Then work with the regional tribes to build memorials, education on what they endured, and are still enduring. And provide a portion of all sales with said image to the tribes in a form of scholarships.
Win Win...
You promote their culture, you help them, and you get a kick butt logo.
Now you're talking...........
I have it...the perfect sports team name. The INQUISITORS....with a Monty Pythonesque Red Robed torturer on the cap.
Sorry Grumpster........it would not work.........NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION !!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA But if they did pull it off.............I would buy a hat stat !!!!!!
Atlanta Braves, Florida Seminoles, Cleveland Indiands, Washington Redskins.... the list goes on and on... ALL ARE RACIST. Americans committed the greatest genocide in the history of the world between 1492 and 1880 by wiping out 20 million native Americans.
The Sioux Nation even said that the North Dakota Fighting Sioux and logo they've had for years was fine with them...but the NCAA still had to do something to eff that all up too.
No, those tribes were not fine with the name and logo. The NCAA told the school it needed authorization from the 2 remaining tribes in order to continue using the name, and they could not get that approval. Any, even if some native Americans are fine with these images, it doesn't make it right, or any less racist. I'm sure you could find african americans who think black face is "fine" too. That doesn't make it any less racist.
The point is, these teams should do the right thing for the right reasons and change their names and mascots. There is no need for them to be offensive. And if that isn't enough, they can even make more $$$ in the long run, with all the new merchandise people will but with the new name/logos.
It has always been common in many of the indian nations to split ways with others when people did not agree. The chances of them coming to an agreement on things is slim.
Go with the Angry Scottsman or other such thing. People you enjoy the stereotype and know it is only that.
Florida State Seminoles is not racist because it's not a cartoonish caricaturization. The Seminoles are a proud tribe having been the only ones to successfully fight off the Americans and not be removed from Florida. So FSU is merely referencing Florida history, and I believe they have the consent and support of the Seminole tribe
FSU does have the support of the Seminole Nation in Florida. The women of the Seminole Nation are the ones that make our mascot's (Chief Osceola and Renegade) costume every year. It's authentic! FSU and the Seminole Nation of Florida have a very good relationship that is full of respect and pride. That's how it should be! GO NOLES!!!!
Nothing like good ol' reverse discrimination....and I'm not sure "genocide" is the right word, especially since I don't think the early explorers mean to "deliberately or systematically" destroy American Indians. What would it have looked like if the American Indians decided to sail to England or France and brought disease with them. Moccasin on other foot...
no-one ever talks about that genocide.... We wiped them all out in the name of GREED and WESTWARD expansion. Kinda like whats happening to the middle class Americans in this Country, only this time they dont use Guns, they do it in a different way. By taking away your job first. which eventually turns into losing your home,etc....
Its easy to cast stones elsewhere. And it doesn't make what happened right...in fact I agree it was terrible. But stop acting like you are so personally offended. Feel free to give your land back to the Natives if it bothers you so much...
You are the problem. You poor wimpy american. Go somewhere else and whine. Oh wait you are on Cnn. Ill go somewhere else where they dont provide the buckets for you to cry in.
America didnt exist until; 1776, and Americans didnt use that name until the early 1800's . Yes the LATINOS are to blame for ALL this mess, if it wasnt for Spain, Christopher Columbus would of never made it here, oh wait, what about Amerigo Vespuci, his Italian, but the Vikings were here LONG before anyone else,,so we should STOP CRYING ! Fortunatly for us, the WHITE man always wants to advance HUMANKIND, were IGNORANT people want to stay behind! Its funny how everyone HATES white people, but everyone wants to live where the WHITES rule, England,France,UNITED STATES,Holland,Swizertland,Sweden,Australia, you name it they all come.
It's only racist in the minds of the "politically correct" (self-appointed thought police). And it wasn't the greatest genocode in history – that occurred in World War II. Also, there are no "Native Americans": everyone's ancestors migrated here from another continent. Sounds very noble and appears to give an air of legitimacy, isn't true.
I cannot believe the issue is really a furor about sports names. Let's bring tech, industrial, and professional employment to reservations by upping the effort we make to offer decent education to children and adults, especially those sequestered on the 'res.' If teams want to use the names, pony up money as a direct contribution to education and health issues for various tribes. These teams are making the money, now let's see them put their money where their logos are.
I agree technical jobs, industry and professional development needs to happen on the "rez." Unfortunately, my hard earned federal tax money that is sent to the reservations is squandered and mismanaged. So no thank you for sending any more money education and health. Clean up the corruption and large money pit first, then maybe people will consider bringing true economic reform to the "rez." With or without logos.
The Cleveland Indians mascot reminds me the Jewish caricature used by the Nazis during World War II. Yeah, this "damned" Indian is happy that the Braves didn't go with the old look. Now the team needs to concentrate on winning the World Series.
Score 1 for humanity. Thank God someone somewhere is making sense.
I'm pretty sure that real Native Americans don't need a Christian god to be thankful to. Duh.
As someone who is "white" and has lived on an Indian reservation for close to ten years. I can tell you it really doesn't matter to most "American Indians" about the mascots...they have high school with "Indians" or variation of the names dealing with Indians. This is all about the liberal left, politically correct people screaming the loudest. Now why don't they just move along and do something more beneficial for society....
Ask the Seminole Nation how much money they make on FSU – they're not going to allow anything to happen to that cash cow. What they're probably mad at is "Indians" and "Braves" are too generic, and no tribe gets to claim them as their own. The Screaming Brave, is in no way as racist as Chief Wahoo. I have no problem getting rid of offensive images...but Illinois' Illini was an AWESOME logo! Careful what you wish for – take away these mascots, and you fade away into history.
Frye:
Before long, we won't be allowed to say the name Indian, or Jew, or Italian; the PC police will find some nondescript way of referring to ethnic peoples and groups. It's at that point when we all become a fuzzy, human blur.
What a joke, I'm Irish...and the last thing in the world that would offend me would be the Notre Dame fighting leprechaun.
This all has to do with being reasonably sane...as in, I'm reasonably sane enough to know that a little cartoon Irish guy holding up his fists does not represent my heritage...only a football team.
Or the Lucky Charms one either.
Better watch it Rory.........commen sense language like that is what gets the politically correct police all wriled up. Next thing you know, you will be accused of being in denial...........or worse yet, an Irish uncle Tom. LOL
do you think those living in Ireland would be offended if the English used degrading Irish symbols... google I.R.A. and you will find you are not really Irish, you are American with Irish ancestors. duh. The 'real' Irish are very touchy about these things, and to this day seek to take revenge on the English Monarchy... hello?
Perception is a weird thing, I'm Irish my wife is Native American. We are Redskin and Dame fans and proud to be both! Although fighting Irish does hurt a bit !! LOL
The usual crapola from the usual suspect. Gee, an ignorant comment against native americans from a guy whose handle is "injun joe". Before you whine about this choice by the Braves, first take your own heritage – polish, italian, jewish, french, english, etc, then find a common, less-than-flattering name or image associated with your heritage. Now pretend that there is a team that exploits that image and name. If you do this honestly you will object to the imagery, or you have no pride in your own heritage.
So go ahead "injun joe" – tell us what your heritage is – tell us how you'd eel if t he tables were turned.
Jeff:
The Sicilian Bandits. Sounds like an interesting name for a baseball team.
or the "Shanty Irish"
I would be delighted for any team to name themselves the "Reggae Boyz".
Should the Marlins be renamed The Floaters after the large population of Cubans that migrated over via inner tube? 😉
silliness.
The mascot should be the 'other' Indians. Dot and all.
Why not have an Indian with a knife sticking in his back.....
that should take care of any history lessons....
Or a white guy being scalped.
Scalping was introduced by the British during the French Indian War.
I have 5 Atlanta Braves hats, all with this "screaming Indian" logo on it. All of them are considered Throwback or Retro, all of my newer hats, just have the "A" on them. So, Atlanta has always used both, not sure why people are getting upset now.
They have nothing better to do.
White people are not upset, Native Americans are. Because you're not offended doesn't mean another person isn't
How many people have to take offense at something before it becomes legitmate? If we are sensitive to every single person's delicate sensibilities, we might as well just all stop communicating. Sometimes I think we need a Czar of Common Sense to mediate these types of issues. I nomiate me. I also second the nomination.
I'm curious what people think of the "Indians" name. If Chief Wahoo were to be replaced with something less offensive, would the name be acceptable? In my opinion, the furor over the nickname comes from the mascot rather than the name. Also, how is the Boston Celtics' name any different? Their mascot is a caricatured Irishman . . . hell, Notre Dame's mascot is also an ethnic caricature. I wonder why native american nicknames and mascots get singled out, when the irish ones don't. Even names like "vandals" and "barbarians" are ethnic slurs if you go far enough back. Braves, Indians, Seminoles, Sioux, etc. seem like compliments to me rather than slurs or epithets.
Absolutely! So Native Americans are offended that we use references to them in the names of our sports team. As you point out, maybe the MN Vikings should offend Scandanavians. But, no, I suspect that Scandanavians are thicker skinned than that. Everyone today is so thin-skinned and so easily offended. It is easy to be offended, if you are looking for something to offend you. Hell, maybe I think that blond jokes are offensive, but then it doesn't matter because blonds are somehow a "privileged" group. So we have to suck it up and take it like good sports, even though blond jokes are based on a generalization and falsehood.
To name a sports team after Native Americans is to give credit to their bravery and fierceness in battle. No offense there. It's intended as a compliment. It also serves as a constant reminder of their place in American history. But, then again, I wouldn't want to interfere in someone's right to whine and cry about imagined insults.
Maybe the Native Americans would be happier if we just forgot about them entirely. I'm willing to go that far to please them.
They don't call the MN Vikings the 'Screaming Rapers and Pillaging Vikings' now do they? The only place it is respectful to have sports teams named for American Indians are the teams that are named by Indian people. No one else due to past bad behavior on the part of the soon to be white minority culture.
Well, actually one Minnesotan of Norwegian descent is offended by the Minnesota Vikings logo and mascot. They always portray a Viking as wearing a helmet with horns, when this is historically inaccurate. It drives me nuts.
I also think the name "Redskins" is horribly rascist. It's like using the n-word.
Oh, I don't know maybe its because unlike the Vandals, Native American societies still exist despite a few centuries mistreatment bordering on genocide on the part of the United States. Things like this exist within a context.
I second that!
Anything white people do is perceived to be racist and negative. When others are racist, like Indians, then we cater to their racism.
Tru that. Once I was at an airshow and I noticed a hanger marked "BAOPA" A bunch of our fine african american citizens in there. It was the Black Aircraft and pilots association. But if a white group had the Waopa they would be labeled for sure.
Well, you can thank your ancestors for the cruelty they displayed to those who didn't have light enough skin.
Black racism is just as ugly as White racism. You cannot justify one, without justifying the other. They are either both wrong, or both right.
They're both wrong in my neighborhood.
Here we go. Europeans are backwards, evil, ignorant, blah, blah, blah. There is no need to insult indigenous peoples of America but come on. Stop identifying your life as a part of a group and start looking what you, as an individual, can do to make the world better. You aren't better because you are indigenous, european, asian, african. You, as an individual, have to stand on your own. Be your own man or woman and stop letting people define you. That includes stereotypes against you and your belief that being part of a group somehow makes you better or more sympathetic.
I agree with a below poster – the Indian visage doesn't appear to be screaming, but more like a big laugh.
What ignorance! First of all Native American culture was far more advanced than European culture both in art, medicine, and family rearing and the main reason for the decimation of the Native American population was a lack of immunity from European diseases not from wars.
Lighten up Felix, he was being sarcastic and flip. Geez, so many tightasses in this world is the problem. In a similar vein as n222s, what's derogatory about being celebrated as brave? Teams want to embody that warrior spirit, isn't it a compliment to be an icon for that very ideal?
I would think Redskins is offensive. I don't understand how "Braves" or "Indians" would be as offensive. If the nicknames of the teams were something like "Drunken Injuns". Yeah. Bad idea. But if someone wants to call me a "Brave", no problem.
x2.
A "brave" was a totally buffed-out warrior who was fearless in battle. It would be like, fifty years from now when China owns our country, the San Diego soccer team gets called "The SEALS". I'd be good with that.
Agreed. Would they be offended if a team added a positive verb in front of the name, like "Outstanding Braves" or "Exemplary Indians"?