Braves reject 'screaming Indian' logo
By Moni Basu, CNN
Atlanta (CNN) – In the end, the Braves are keeping with tradition - as in the signature 'A' that is the team's logo.
MLB.com posted a photo of the new navy blue batting practice caps with a red and white scripted 'A.' The team will wear those hats at spring training, which starts Tuesday.
The Braves said a decision on the batting caps had not been made yet when a potential design was leaked several weeks ago. That design drew ire for its "screaming Indian" logo.
"I like the selection we made this year," Braves President John Schuerholz said in a statement Monday. "We had a variety of choices that we looked at, some more thoroughly than others. But at the end, we liked this one."
But writer Paul Lukas of ESPN's Uni Watch blog, who broke the news of the cap design in December, wasn't buying the Braves' statement. He suggested the Braves withdrew the design because of the furor it caused.
"In other words, the Braves are claiming that they were never committed to the Indian head cap to begin with," Lukas wrote. "But that doesn't ring true.
"The Indian head cap has been shown for months in the official MLB Style Guide and is still shown there right now," Lukas wrote. "It's also shown in the new New Era catalog. All signs indicate that the Braves fully intended to go with the Indian design until the recent controversy caused them to have second thoughts.
Whew. That was certainly the reaction for some Americans, especially Native American groups that were highly critical of the screaming Indian logo.
Kevin Gover, director of the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of the American Indian, said in December that the use of the screaming Indian logo would be going backward.
"What this does is contribute to the casual racism native people are subjected to in our society," said Gover, a member of the Pawnee Nation.
The screaming Indian is an image of an imaginary Indian, Gover said. It and other stereotypical sports mascots, he said, do not portray Native Americans for who they truly are.
The Indian was part of the Braves logo when the team moved to Atlanta from Milwaukee in 1966. It was retired in 1989.
The team also had a mascot, Chief Noc-a-Homa (knock a homer), who wore Native American dress and war paint.
But not everyone agreed with the Braves' decision. Twitter had these comments Monday afternoon:
https://twitter.com/ADeVoll17/status/301059315261915136
And this one:
Others just wanted a piece of the controversy:
Debate over sports mascots is, of course, not new. U.S. professional and collegiate sports teams have used Native American logos and names for years. Baseball's Cleveland Indians, for instance, continue to feature a smiling Indian dubbed Chief Wahoo, criticized as a racist caricature.
Sometimes this happens with the blessing of Native American tribes, and other times – like with the NFL's Washington Redskins, a term that many feel advances a demeaning stereotype – they have been denounced as racial slurs.
The NCAA imposes a ban on offensive Native American mascots and last year, voters dumped the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux mascot. Florida State University's use of Seminole imagery is allowed because it is supported by the the state's Seminole Tribe.
About In America
What defines you? Maybe it’s the shade of your skin, the place you grew up, the accent in your words, the make up of your family, the gender you were born with, the intimate relationships you chose to have or your generation? As the American identity changes we will be there to report it. In America is a venue for creative and timely sharing of news that explores who we are. Reach us at inamerica@cnn.com.
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Am I the only one bothered by the term "native-american"? NOT because of political correctness but because it is an inaccurate description of the Americas' indigenous-peoples. If you were born here, guess what, you are a native-american. If your people were here first, you are part of an indigenous tribe.
Oh, and google "Fighting Whities". Some college kids at the U of Northern Colorado made up a logo years back to show the "offensiveness" of using peoples as mascots. Of course, no white person was offended and you can buy "Fighting Whities" t-shirts on-line. (NO, I am not connected to them. I wish I had thought of it first, however!)
Yeah, it's more than a little ironic that the way we correct Columbus' error of referring to the native peoples as "Indians" (because he mistakenly thought he had arrive in India) is to instead respectfully name them after the culture that stole their land and tried to wipe out their culture and their race.
Read the post: if you were born here you are a native to the land. If your people were here first, you are part of an indigenous people. 99.9% of the citizens of the US are natives.
And there ya go. Look, words have meanings. I was merely pointing out the paucity of knowledge as to the proper use of certain words. I am the LEAST politically correct person I know. It bothers me because the word NATIVE has a specific meaning when used in relation to a person or a group of people. Simply because people don't understand the difference between native and indigenous is no reason to insult someone.
n222s:
Multiple personalities much?
Political correctness is tyranny with manners.
Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish," now that's racist. . .
I can't believe First Nations people are still referred to as "Indians". For Chr*$ts sake, look at a map. India is on the other side of the world.
The fact is that most of the aboriginal peoples of the Americas (with the exception of the Inuit peoples – who are a completely different ethnicity) refer to themselves collectively as "Indians", when they don't use the name of their specific nation.
With all of the political correctness that this shows, can someone get PETA involved. I need them to take care of their responsibilty to defend all animal mascots that are show in a vicious manner. No teeth showing. No Snarles of agression. We need them to fight for their animal rights. Maybe getting contributions for using their likeness as a mascot to fund PETA or even better the 1000's of special animal causes and shelters in America. Maybe we make the MLB use insects instead. Im not sure their are special interest groups for insects. The Atlanta Flys or Macon Gnats. Boston Butterflys. Texas Rodents.
Please tell me you people see the absurdity of my words.
Shoot, here I thought this would be a throwback. Next they move back to Boston and we have a real baseball team again.
That would not be a throwback, that would be a throw-up.
As someone who is 50% Italian i am OUTRAGED that Olive Garden dares to call itself an italian "restaurant" but serves nothing but fattening, over-cheesed Americanized "Italian" food that makes a mockery of the ancient hertiage and traditions of the great Italian people. I am planning to sue Olive Garden for cultural defamation as long as they insist on keeping their Grilled Chicken Carbonara and phony breadsticks on the menu.
What does this have to do with the story? What does this have to do with ANYTHING?
Are you that dumb, or does it just come natural ??............
It's called an "analogy." He finds the notion that American Indians are offended by their depiction in sports to be silly and frivolous. So he made an analogous silly, frivolous argument that he's offended (as an Italian American) by Olive Garden's depiction of his culture.
It's also called "humor." Lighten up.
He is simply pointing out that characterizations of cultures filled with inaccuracies, stereotypes, and even offensive connotations are ubiqutious in our culture.
Is there anything more offensive about a Cherokee Brave than a fat Italian stereotype, a slow diving Asian stereotype, or any other. That some races, nationalities, and cultures are granted protected status as if they were too fragile to stand up to socities treatment is rather patronizing and condescending.
The fact is, anyone whining about this or any similar image is either speaking out of their own raciest guilt or a victimization mentality. Grow a pair.
Si, Si, eccellente!
How about instead we have the "Denver Guidos" where the logo is an overweight, hairy mobster with gold chains, the mascot is an orange-fake tanned, feauxhawk-wearing bar bouncer in a tight shirt, and all the fans in the stands chant "fuggeduboudit!" Italian Americans would be furious, so spare us the holier-than-thou sarcasm.
Alternatively, you could use less derogatory Italian reference like The Garibaldi Rebels, or The Savoy Kings. You're referring to ethnic eccentricities and slurs, i.e., the things that will get the crap beat out of you.
Indians called themselves Braves and Warriors; these are not derogatory terms. Using a term that is excepted as complimentary is not a put down. Get over yourself.
Maybe they need an Indian with a carton of Marlboro and a casino in the background, is that what you are saying??????
There has to be "white" guy on that logo too.
It is offensive given how horrible native american were treated.
Whats left that does NOT OFFEND>? What say we all put our grown up panties on and enough with the petty whining, ehh?
Any logo that depicts any human being of any culture other than a white, middle class American male, in a polo shirt and khakis should be permitted in professional sports. Vikings are offensive to those of Scandinavian decent. The Pirates, Bucs, and Raiders logos are offensive to pirates everywhere. How much longer are the Redskins and Blackhawks logos going to be around? The depictions of Irish in the Celtics and Notre Dame logos are utterly offensive. No African American logos...that would be just over the top! Perhaps it is racist that there aren't any? All logos should be limited to animals, articles of clothing (socks), colors, and weather patterns (lightning, heat, thunder, etc.).
" The Pirates, Bucs, and Raiders logos are offensive to pirates everywhere." LOL!!
I didn't realize pirates were that sensitive, while murdering innocent women and children!
All primitives look alike.
Yea the look like Ted Nuggent.
What this soft country needs is a Mongol hoard just to come through and really clean the place up.
Actually, if the hoard just cleaned up California, New York, Minnesota and Massachusetts, we'd be OK.
While you are at it would you please ban the tomahawk chop and that incessant chanting? As an opponent it bugs me and I find it offensive.
And having a Polish background with my last name being: Wojciechowski......... I am fed up with Thomasville using the Brautwurst as its logo, when they are making a mokery of it by coming out with a healthier Turkey version.... As a Polack THIS IS AN OUTRAGE..............And I am NOT gonna take it ANYMORE.
If the American Indian wants to be forgotten ... this is the correct path to take. A generation after the last "indian" name is removed, no one will know (or care) what an American Indian is.
I won't forget american indians, but I will forget YOU.
As the son of two Irish immigrants, I am insulted by the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish" logo. It is time that it, like the "Screaming Indian", needs to go. And I am being sarcastic.
One of these days people will grow up an relize there are a lot of real problems in the world an stop whinning over pedley crap. Its a sports team not a political campain GROW UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!
Have you consulted with the Native Americans in the Atlanta region. I am sure they would not approve of such logos being used. It's inappropriate to depict a Culture in such a manner. Nobody is insulting white cultures in the United States with logos on there sports shirts. The ignorance is unbelievable. Have some respect.
Nobody insulting white culture? The entire problems of the world are blamed on white, American fathers.
well, they stole a country and almost erased the native American race from the planet ...!
How about every country has been stolen by and from different groups all throughout history. Arabic people and Africans stole Spain, Castillians stole it from them. The Middle East has been stolen by and from other groups throughout the years. Native American groups stole land back and forth from each other. The Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Mongols, the Russian Empire.... if I listed them all then my fingers would be bleeding. Don't give me this – white man bad stole land from native Americans stuff. Almost everyone around where I live has some mixed heritage including Native American heritage. Get off of your self-righteous high horse and realize that this is the way the globe was formed into what it is today. It will continue happening because, we as humans, will continue to fight and war over land.
what about notre dame's mascot? the fighting irish and there's a little leprechaun smoking a pipe that looks drunk. i don't see any irish people up in arms about it. or the boston celtic's mascot, same thing.
That's because we Irish are too drunk to care.
Really....I guess you didn't watch the college football NationalmChampionship......The Fighting Irish.....I guess all the Irish are bad tempered midgets....
Actually the majority of American Indians have no issues with these team mascots. Besides only a very small number of Indian protesters, most of the complaints were from whites.
If you look at history, a lot of tribes from the South were removed to reservation in Oklahoma. So technically, maybe one or two tribes remain in the South.
Have you consulted with the Native Americans in the Atlanta region. I am sure they would not approve of such logos being used. It's inappropriate to depict a Culture in such a manner. Nobody is insulting white cultures in the United States with logos on there sports shirts. The ignorance is unbelievable.
The racist ones are those supposed PC folks in Hollywood that have for nearly a century pumped out films and tv shows that stereotyped and denigrating Indians ( as well as Arabs (excellent example -watch on YT : Reel Arabs), Germans, Russians, Italians, etc). The sooner we recognize the scourge living among us, the sooner we'll have a better nation.
How about a cap depicting an Indian running a Casino, or Bingo Parlor?
How do we know the "Indian" wasn't singing or giving a speech?
Never a shortage of PC.
the country that put the Indian logo on doesn't exist anymore. It was put on in respect to the Indians.
What total nonsense. Can't have a depiction of an indian because it might be offensive? No one seems to have a problem insulting the Irish every March. Red haired, drunk, little people. Luck charms serial? Hey, what if there were a serial shaped like the star of david with a cartoon on the front of the box that had a guy with a big nose saying "They're really cheap"? Whoa! Can't do that because it might be offensive. the world isn't full of double standards... it's full of a million standards.How come there's the term "African-American" and I'm just called "White"? Why not at least "European-American"? With the exception of the natives of this continent none of us are FROM here. The world is tripping over it's attempts to be politically correct!
Not the world, just the US. The rest of the world is somewhat more mature about this stuff than we are.
The rest of the world is more mature? The rest of the world is a thousand times more racist than America. Wars, genocides, ethnic cleansing, mass forced migration are occuring all over the world today, while in the US people whine about the symbol of a ballcap.
They are not frome here either, they just got here first.
Leprechauns are not stereotypes of Irish people, they are mythological creatures from folklore. Your comparison of a leprechaun negatively depicting the Irish to a screaming Indian negatively depicting Native Americans makes no sense. Also, there are other terms for "White". Ex. Caucasian.
Are you telling me that no "indians" have ever screamed? Is screaming such a terrible thing?
Sadly, most of us would forget the American Indian ever existed if it wasn't for Sports Teams named after them....
just sayin'
Prior to 1940, the American Indian was depicted on several US coins, but didn't reappear until the debut of the Sacagawea doller coin 1990.
Gosh, I can't spell The Sacagawea dollar coin replaced the Susan B. Anthony coin in 2000.
How about the Democrats or Republicans.....That would be truly terrifying!!!
I am an American Indian (half Cherokee,Half Sioux) and a huge Braves fan. I love the screaming Indian logo and I am disappointed that the Braves are scrapping it. For those people who are blaming Indians for this, think again. The groups that start the whining and complaining have nothing to do with us or our opinions. It is just groups, such as the ACLU who make their living by complaining for others. Trust me, the people who are offended by the Braves logo, the Washington Redskins, the FSU Seminoles, the Utah Utes and any other Indian name, have no idea how REAL AMERICAN INDIANS feel and they don't really care.
I tend to agree Dan E,
honestly all of my tribal friends think of this as a non-issue. reality is that sometimes having something named after your haritage gives pride and reason to support the team.
a screaming bravo logo is a characture. only ignorant people look at that logo and assume all tribal americans run around chanting or giving battle cries. aside from a powwow, nobody does that.
the whole debate is silly, as are most of the sarcastic comments here.
If you cowards decide to drop the Braves, please consider the Pollacks. I'm of Polish descent and I'd follow your team forever if you had a screaming Pollack on your hat. Maybe with a pirogi under each arm. Not offensive to me. It would be a honor to have such a great team as the Braves change their name to the Pollacks. I can here them now, screaming 'GO POLLACKS" !! With the drummer beating out a great polka beat. Great idea!
Geez Dan.....spel our heritage correctly !....its Polack !.....aka...the People who never quit.......and supplied the best Pope ever ! Semper Fi
Why not ? Bring back lil black Sambo,steppin Fetchit,Frito Bandido,Joe Camel,Spuds MacKenzie and all the rest.
Don't stop there.
I had a Frito Bandido eraser when I was a kid. Hated the chips, but it came with the eraser in the bag.
Now THAT'S what I'm talking' about!
They are dropping the current logo, not the name. Lets not go overboard here.
From very cool to extremely blase. From traditional to politically correct. Too bad Braves! Oh, excuse me, is it still the Braves???
Pansies. Pansies everywhere.
Screaming? Really? I thought he was laughing!
Good decision.
And the Cleveland Indians. And the Washington Redskins. Cincinnati Reds? Hmmm...how far can this go? I know...the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are an insult to pirates everywhere. And people who have lost an eye. Or who say "arrrrrrr" all the time. San Francisco Giants...well...let's change that to Size Challenged. Yankees? That is a derogatory term used agains northerners during the Civil War. Let's make that, NY Northerners. Ugh. This is making me tired.
Cincinnati's "Reds" is a shortened version of "Redlegs," derived from the red stockings the old time teams wore.
this decision just makes me want to go out and be SUPER RACIST!!!
I am not only offended, I am just plain outraged! COWARDS!!!! Afraid of anyone or anything, and it's this kind of political correctness that makes cowards of those who are afraid to stand up for their beliefs, simply because of some possum nose minority is offended and so everybody must suffer. Well, I'm one who is just plain fed up with political correctness and all it's cowardly fools who support it!!
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel.
CNN, you once again show that journalism in the modern era is sometimes lazy, lazy, lazy. Why provide more information when you can pick a random tweet from an even more random redneck (like Mr. Bohannon), post it as one of the "points of view" on a topic, and call it analysis?
The people that are offended are typically over-reactive white people. A few years ago North Dakota did away with the Fighting Sioux mascot. Months later two Sioux tribes sued to have it reinstated. They liked it and were proud of it.
The notion that "Indians" are all one people, and should be grouped together, is part of the problem. It's like a team called the Whites with a mascot all dressed in lederhosen.
I can tell you for a fact the Washington Redskins are extremely popular on the Navajo Reservation. The largest reservation in our country.
I think "Indian" shouldn't be used or referred to in this context, because it makes my Euro-ancestors look stupid for thinking they were in India when they were in another land with natives who never called themselves "Indian".
This x 100 ^^^^^
why does no one get up in arms over Viking portrayals? Aren't they sterotypical? Why is it that stereotypes of anyone with white skin are fine? Is it just that our skin is also the thickest?
Careful, don't portray a characiture British king as fat or pompus, that would be a stereotype.
Why doesn't Atlanta pick a name that is more appropriate for the people who live there.
The Atlanta Klansmen
If you have respect for others you don't need to be PC...It will come....Naturally
Insult an entire (largly black) city, and then say how people need to respect others... Very two-faced...
Wow – Atlanta Klansmen? Atlanta – 54% Black, 38% white 3% Asian, 5% Hispanic.
It's obviously a dated stereotype. We need a logo that respects modern Native American achievements – like a man in a business suit selling cheap cigarettes and dealing cards.
Here are some other Pro teams that need to change:
Giants: Offensive to tall people, Saints: Offensive to non-catholic religions, Panthers: Offensive to older women, Browns: Offensive to African Americans, Patriots: Offensive to ultra-liberals, Chiefs/Reskins: Offensive to Native Americans, 76ers – Offensive to people not born in 1976, Spurs – Offensive to horses, etc....
I like making lists too...Stupid, Dumb, Idiotic, ridiculous, waste of comment
I understand the point you're tryign to make, but at least know why teams are named a certain way. The Philadelphia 76ers are called the 76ers for 1776, not 1976. You know, the whole declaration of independence thing that our country is based on...
I prefer to believe in the 1976 thing. I was born in 1974. That's why I hate the sixers.
I am Native, I am offended, nuff said.
1/16th?
I am a human being. So any portrayal of a human being that doesn't meet with my approval offends me and must not be used. Nuff said. Is that how it works, Rootsin? Now the Redskins; I'll give you that one. That word has never been anything but a derogatory term. It should go.
I am Native. I am NOT offended. 'Nuff said.
II am native too! I am offended by them taking away the screaming Indian logo.
So why do you have the right to not get offended over me getting offended?
I'm offended that the New England Patriots have a flying video game robot on their helmet instead of a patriot. As a Caucasian with American roots dating back to the Revolutionary War, I am deeply disturbed by this football team helmet logo design.
I have a Norwegian friend that is very upset about the Vikings logo. Viking helmets did not have horns and he thinks it is a disrespectful caricature of his people.
The screaming indian logo is badass, IMO
I am part Indian and there was nothing wrong with the screaming Indian logo. Whining cry baby screaming minority opinion liberals are ruining our culture and everything of flavor that is fun. What are you going to ban the 49rs? fighting irish? cowboys? rebels (might offend the law abiding)? angels (can't insinuate religion)? devils (can't insinuate satanism)? sharks, dolphins etc (might offend the fish)? Might as well ban them all cause someone somewhere in this pansy society is going to be offended by every one of them. You people need to get over yourselves and your own personal problems because teams choose these logos as a way to honor the representative icon as a symbol of toughness or perseverance or ferocity they want to be associated with. It's a good thing not a bad one. The problem is in you not the symbol.
Jerad, loved your post. Especially the last line. It's time to end this PC garbage. Everyone is offended by this and that. Pretty soon EVERYTHING will be off limits. It's just ridiculous. A symbol is something that you pick because you are PROUD to have it represent you. They were PROUD to have the screaming indian representing them. It wsn't meant to be racist in nature. I see it more as a tribute to the indians (Native Americans, that is).
As a Sioux Hockey fan. Well said! It's a shame what happened to our logo. PC is killing society. Couldn't agree with you more. The NCAA is terrible on this. Seminoles get to keep their name because of huge $$ payout, what's right about that?
Go Dodgers! Go Reds! Go (whoever the Braves are playing)!
AMEN!
It's funny how everyone that saying it isn't racist or uncomfortable aren't Native American. "RedSkins" "Blackskins" "BrownSkins" "WhiteSkins"...
Redskins IS racist. It's a derogatory term. Indians and Braves are not derogatory. How is this not obvious to everyone, regardless of heritage?
Exactly.
'Redskins' is racist. It'a a derogatory term, period.
The sad part is that we have all of these racist hypocrites who rabidly defend their selfish stance.
Good, now get rid of that boring, stupid "tomahawk chop." Wave a towel or something, sheez.
i saw the logo and immediately thought it was the best braves logo ive ever seen. the A for atlanta is incredibly lame. for indians i think their demand should be that its a dignified warrior image and that its not a foolish image. so i would understand that. but as a part italian if i could support a team that idolized italian heritage it would be awesome and make me proud. just like the irish are proud of the four leaf clover. you could probably do the feather for the indians. but its a statement of pride that should be viewed that way.
I am Native American (card-carrying member of the Cherokee Tribe) and I happen to live in the Cherokee Capital in Oklahoma. Needless to say, this is an area heavily populated with Native Americans. Not only am I not offended by such mascots, I actually take pride in them. I don't care if they're called Savages, Redskins, Braves, Indians (in fact, Sequoyah HIgh School, which is the local school operated by Cherokee Nation, is the home of the Indians), or whatever. I have questioned many Native Americans about this very issue, and I haven't found a single one who is offended by these mascots. In fact, our local college (Northeastern State University) used the mascot of Redmen for many years. A couple of years ago a group of outsiders raised a fuss about it and finally the NCAA threatened to take actions against NSU if they didn't change their mascot name. They are now known as the RiverHawks (which is really stupid as it is a fictional bird they just made up). Everyone I know locally was against the change, but there wasn't anything we could do about it. As proud Redmen alums, it really sucked for my friends and me to have total strangers from out of state come in and force this down our throats. If you want to be offended by something, fine – but don't try to pretend that the majority of Native Americans agree with you, because quite simply, they don't. I view teams choosing such mascots as an honor, because why would any team choose a mascot they don't respect? You don't see teams named "The Wimps" or "The Numbskulls" do you? Think what you want, this is just my two cents...
Good for you Julie. I applaud your comment. This faux outrage doesn't come from Native Americans.. It comes from well to do, whiny, trust-fund babies who get offended when Starbucks gets their order wrong.
I totally agree with you. However, I am from Cleveland and always wondered what Native Americans think of Chief Wahoo. To me Chief Wahoo looks like a Native American version of Uncle Remus.
I love me some Julie. Good for you, girl.
So they'll replace this with a screaming liberal?
Now that of course is FACT, not just stereotyping of liberals.
Not a liberal / conservative issue... This is whiny babies vs adults that live in the real world. I'm a liberal and I think anyone offended by a logo is a whiny baby. I also support 2nd amendment. The liberal/conservative thing is just worn out and doesn't apply to most people.
Its ok for commercials to make the white male look like a simpleton when the commercial has a black couple and the white male's wife critisizing him for something he did. The commercial makes the black couple look intelligent along with the wife. Its not ok to make fun of the black couple because you'll be a racist
Totally agree. It is not only HIP and FUNNY to make fun of white people, but it is encouraged and condowned by TV, Movies, Print media, Music, etc.... Black power, okay. Purple Power, okay. Yellow Power, okay... White Power (SHREAK!) THAT'S RACIST!
Bearclaw69, I'm a liberal.. and as you'll see I'm in 100% agreement with you. This isn't a liberal / conservation issue.. It is a whiny baby vs. adult issue.
I am Italian and I am offended by Little Caesars.
Pizza Pizza
Hey, that's our word.
Bwahahahaha... Good one...
Actually Pizza was created in MERICA, as was Spag w/ meat balls, Spag w/ Meat sauce, etc... Most "ITALIAN" food as MERICANS know it wasn't created in Italy.
Don't know why I'm even bothering... But using your logic, the Atlanta Blackskins (and the mascot is a white guy wearing blackface) would be perfectly fine with you. Hmmm...
Let's cut to the chase. Just change it to the Atlanta Racists.
If the Braves were owned by Native American owners, would it still be considered racist?
Yeah, after seeing that emblem I am afraid to talk to Native American Indians; they might yell and scream at me.
Companies pay teams billions to have their names, such as Comerica and Safeco, on their stadiums because they derive a benefit from it. Native Americans should demand that teams pay them hard cash if the teams are getting a benefit from the images and ideas of their ancestors. THEN would Atlanta use Indian symbols? Not a chance.
Uh no, not "REALLY..." I am trying to make a rhetorical point. I wouldn't expect you understand however. Thanks for confirming that most of the people on this comment board are too superficial to engage in any kind of useful discussion. God forbid we should use metaphors, make rhetorical points, or argue in favor of respecting words and concepts of the peoples of our nation. And the letter "E" has nothing to do with it, as a letter is a written shorthand for a sound, not a cultural concept.
Good point and I agree. However, the same logic also dictates the Pirates should change their name less they offend any pirates.
Native America's don't own the rights on Native American imagery. That is a false comparison. If the whitest white whitey makes a cartoon of an American Indian, whether offensive or not, they own the rights on that imagery. Typical false equivalency from a proponent of over reaching political correctness.
I am Irish.... I deserve some of that money Notre Dame is taking in! Great idea!
It's an awesome logo. Anyone should be proud to show their warrior ancestry. Do you think the Northern Europeans cry over Viking logos?
Of course not. We live in a world where it is not only cool to make fun of and exhibit racism towards white people, but it is encouraged. Just turn on any TV station, read any newspaper, etc.
That's because the Vikings decimated everyone else in their path, rather than getting oppressed by the invaders as the Native Americans did. Therefore all of the "symbols" have become patronizing "tributes" to a people we didn't actually respect. Besides, isn't it up to a Native American to decide what is insulting to her or him?
It sure is up to Native Americans to be offended or not. I haven't seen a post yet from somebody that has any objection to it but you. And if your not Native American, then what is your angle?
i was just on Six Nation Indian Reserve – which I have been to many times. If Indians are upset by this – then maybe they should change their cartoonish and derogatory signs for the "Red Indian Convenience Store" and the "Sit'n Bull Convenience Store". Until then – it really doesn't matter. there are teams called the Vikings, Patriots, etc – and no one is getting their panties in a twist.
Whether they are on team logos or not, calling the use of Native American symbols a "tribute" or an "honor" is hypocritical and absurd. Are we supposed to believe that having a baseball cap or a dancing Indian with feathers at half time is an honor to the people whose land we stole, whose treaties we reneged on, whose warriors we fought and killed, and whose women and children we marched to "reservations" hundreds of miles from their homes?
Then Six Nations Indian Reserve should remove the sign of "Sit'n Bull Convenience Store" that has a cartoonist bull sitting in a chair wearing a headdress. BTW – no where did your comment address anything I said – since I made zero mention of whether it was "tribute" or not.
mandfkiwsa – I bet you have ever been on an Indian Reserve – nor does it seem like you even know any Indians. My best friend, who i have known for 20 years, is Indian and I have been up to the reserve many many time. I was just up there for week to spend Christmas up there.
Mandfkiwsa: As a person whose heritage includes Native American, I would like to know if you are planning on filing a class action lawsuit against the Atlanta Braves, the Washington Redskins, et al? I don't plan on being a part of your farce; I simply want to know when and where you will be, so I can do a rain dance all over your parade.
If you travel to the American southwest to Indian reservations you will find that native Americans choose Indian Mascots for the names of their own sports teams on their reservations. Would they be choosing these names for their own teams if they were offended by it? Clearly not. As a Irish American I could clearly take issue with the term fighting Irish. The truth is all Indians are not offended by these names. These names were chosen to not only remember the first Americans but to bring honor to them.
Right.. because it's okay to be racist towards white people. Or so every main stream media outlet would have you think.
baseball is silly.
Lets focus on building a missile system to counter North Korea
Anybody that calls this racist or offense or anything else negative needs to just grow up, get over it and move on.
There is bigger fish to fry (oh wait, might offend peta).
Im not a Braves fan (not really a baseball fan) and am part Indian, there is no problem if they want to use that as THEIR logo, its THEIRS not YOURS.
Put your big girl or boy panties on and worry about your damn self and stop with all the PC crap.
Damn sure hope I offended somebody with this.
I use red socks. I know I may be a racist because I don't like white sucks. I have a friend whose skin is red, and he's offended because the color of my socks are the same, and I don't like him sometimes because he uses white socks. The Red Sox and White Sox temas need to change their logos and names, because it offends me. Do it, or you're all racists too.
As a life long Braves fan I am glad the logo was dropped. Who needs accusations of racism whether valid or not? Being PC is about taking other people's feelings into account. It is a strength, not a weakness. The complaints about the logo change are puzzling. The Braves do not need the distraction while they are possibly on the cusp of their greatest season ever.
Thanks Braves fan, for being one of the few logical people on here. Although I do disagree that the complaints are surprising, given the ignorant "me first" attitude of most citizens....they care more about their own freedoms than the freedoms of others. As you said, being PC is simply about being sensitive to others' feelings. Yes, sometimes that PC-ness goes too far, but in this case, it is completely warranted.
Actually, it is pathetic.
I also am offended, as an Irishman, by the Notre Dame mascot.......Not. Get a life people.
My people raped and pillaged all over Europe, and now they use our name in Minnesota!!! Oh the horror!!!
Braves Fan... Do you also live with your mother?
So – should I be upset because my Scandanavian ancestors are shown as savages by the Minnesota Vikings, or because my high school mascot was a Roman Centurion? Aren't these showing my Europeon heritage in an unfavorable light? Why is it that minority peoples are offended but don't come to the defense of my Europeon heritage? Is it racism on their part?
The most offensive thing about the Atlanta is that they were called "America's Team". This American wasn't a fan.
I am offended by the screaming Indian logo because it is ugly.
....and another ignorant, uneducated fool comments on these boards. It's not being "PC" to acknowledge that when one race slaughters another race, and then tries to use their image as a mascot, it just might be inappropriate.
Another organization bows at the altar of PC.
Because everyone knows we want mascots of weak and timid creatures.
I've been both a beaver and a duck (mascotically speaking...). Definitely not threatening creatures
Can't we all just get along.
This PC horse hockey has gone too far. There are people that are just professionally offended.
We are all children of a higher power. THAT we all have in common. Let's work with that!
Ok, so all of you who see no offense in using Native American nicknames and silly symbols, I'm sure then wouldn't find any problem with a team called for eg. only..."The Alabama Spearchuckers"?
As a member of NASA, i am offended by the name: Houston Rockets, Houston Astro's, Houston Aeros. As a former Member of Boeing, I am offended by the name :New York Jets.
Certainly you do not see that as the same thing. If you do then I hope that you were only cleaning the floors at NASA. You are not a rocket or a jet. The Rockets are called that in honor of being in that city. Do you really see any honor in naming a team "Redskins"?
So instead you would deem that someone who cleans floors is inferior. Where does it begin and where does it end?
@Gordon – Good point!
@Dexter – What's wrong? Screaming Indian got your tongue?
Ok? If you are not offended by it – what about "Rocket Scientist" mascot/logo?
For those too dumb to realize, here's a handy tool for racist mascots...
You can call a team the "Zulus" but you can't call them the "darkies".
You can name a team the Washington "Apaches" with tribe specific rituals and depictions... but you can't call them the "Redskins" and slap a caricature on the helmet.
You can call a team the San Diego "Samurais" but you cant call them San Diego "Yellards" with a cartoon as the mascot with exaggerated stereotyped "asian" attributes.
Just the same you can't call a team the "crackers" with a caricature of Bing Crosby as the logo.
Is it really that hard to NOT to be racist?
bring back the Washington Bullets!!!
As someone one from the Northern part of the country, I demand the Yankees chose a new name as I find this an insulting and demoralizing misrepresentation of living in the Rust Belt
How is it that other groups think that they get to decide what is negative for another group. If the Native Americans have a problem with it then it is a problem. If the Seminoles have no problem with their name being used then it should be used. I just really think that Redskins is a bit much.
Waaaa waaa. I'm offended because Dexter is named after a fiction serial killer.. Waaa waaa waaa
I'm offended by the Boston Celtics and Notre Dame mascots.
Funny how everyone is so quick to compare this to the Irish imagery of the Celtics or Notre Dame, yet fail to consider the FACT that millions of Irish were not slaughtered by the founders of this very country, the way that Native Americans were. Would it be acceptable for a German soccer team to call themselves the "Jews"? I agree the world is entirely too "PC" these days, but considering the Native Americans were once living on the very foundation that you call home, and then the American ancestors came along and slaughtered nearly every last one of them (mostly for not converting to christianity)...I find it a little ignorant that people are now complaining because they can't use a stereotypical image of these victims on their baseball cap.
Dan: You need to go back to school and look at the history of the Irish in this country. Look up some things like "no Irish allowed" or the origin of the phrase "paddywagon" and maybe you would see the correlation. The "fighting irish" symbol could easily be upsetting, and your lack of understanding of that concept shows ignorance. But as others said, get over it. You can't make everyone happy all the time and some folks will always have a problem with something.
Have a little issue with selective ignorance of history there Dan. "America for Americans" came about in a very anti-Irish time in our history.
So how about the Cleveland Indians? or the Washington Redskins?
Naming a team the redskins is akin to naming them the "darkies"
Pretty lazy and derogatory.
well, there aren't many redskins on the team, so lets call them the Washington Blackskins..............
Uh, no.. It really isn't like that at all.... Go cry in a "dark" corner.
How do you figure it's not!?
The team is named directly after the friggin' "color" of their skin with a native American caricature as the logo!
To not see it as racist means you've got to be pretty dumb..
Off topic: If they are Indians what am I ( citizen of republic of India). Am I south asian.
There you go – the Atlanta Binders.
YOU NATIVE AMERICAN!
Are you kidding me? The only group still openly stereotyped by all is Caucasian. Everyone makes fun of the ignorant Appalachian hillbilly with no regard...
Hillbillies can be any race. I grew up in Georgia and knew several black people that labeled themselves rednecks.
You're a L-I-A-R.
Perhaps if there were MLB teams called the Hillbillies then you might understand.
JD...if Caucasians had been slaughtered by the millions by another culture, who then wanted to use their image as a mascot, it would be inappropriate as well. Everyone is so concerned about their own rights and freedoms, they fail to recognize that their freedoms only extend so far as to not tread on others' freedoms.....namely, the freedom to not be slaughtered by a race and then treated by that race as a mascot.
Apparently you need a history lesson.
No Essmeir . . .I men I am OFFENDED!!! Everyone else gets to be offended . . .Native Americans are offended at the Braves and Redskins logo . I want my chance to be offeded too! ..After all, the victim mentality is not reserved just for minorities . . . .I want in on it! They have taken an image of my ancestry and twisted it . . .Nordic peoples are tired of being the laughing stock of the middle ages.
You ANGRY NATIVE AMERICAN
Swede, when millions of people of your race are slaughtered, and then their likeness treated as a mascot for a sporting event, THEN you can offended. Until then, shut up.
Hey! We won the Indian Wars, dagnabbit, fair-n-square. Heck, they got enough money with all them casino's all over the place, why don't they just buy the teams with names that keep em up at night?
The saddest thing is that Native Americans (or American Indians if you will) seem to be fading out of existence. While other minority groups (black, Hispanic, Asian) are becoming (if slowly) more represented in the media – it seems that the Native Americans are being forgotten. So while some people complain that these old images and mascots are racist – they seem to be the last representation of the American Indian in popular culture. Has there ever been a TV show to feature American Indians living in present times? Could any person under the age of 50 even name a famous living Native American? They were portrayed historically in many Hollywood films years ago – many times as negative stereotypes. But what was the last big film that brought Native Americans to the forefront of American popular culture? Dances With Wolves perhaps. But that movie came out in 1990. It's sad – it seems that the first Americans with their glorious culture are slowly fading away as other minority cultures fight to have their voices heard. An American tragedy if there ever was one.
Windtalkers is one, but that was more than 10 years ago. Can't think of any more.
He isn't screaming. He's laughing.
"What this does is contribute to the casual racism native people are subjected to in our society," said Gover, a member of the Pawnee Nation."
I don't get it, but then I'm not yet a part of a minority.
I'm a native american, I was born here, and i'm not offended...........
...i dont care about anyones feelings, just gimme one of the hats
I am of Scandinavian descent. . .and as such . .I am DEEPLY offended at the use of the Minnesota Vikings mascot. Vikings did not have horns on their helmets . .. and it's that same stereotyope that has made so many of my ancestors seem demonic in the eyes of the masses. This negative stereotype only further solidifies the belief among non-nordic people that we are barbaric, mead swilling rapists. I pray, Nay I demand that the NFL change the logo, name and mascot of this team to the Minnesota Liberals! They can put a smiling picture of Al Franken on the helmet . .Because. . . .thats' pretty scary.
You cannot be offended by the Vikings' choice of helmet unless the team did it specifically to annoy you. Offense is personal; in this case, the team likely doesn't even know you exist.
What you mean is, "I don't like that."
Your comment certainly puts things in perspective, Swede.
Me like'm that logo!
This whole brouhaha is ridiculous. The screaming indian is actually a laughing indian. Anyway, there's no racism there. Everybody's gotta have a beef to feel like they're somebody, I guess.
I miss the days when you could call Notre Dame the DRUNKEN Fightin' Irish. You'd dress up in a red wig and all green, throwing Catholics and rainbows and other weird things their lot are into. Yet people wanna stop, they say making mockery and playing up the worst stereotypes of an entire group of people is somehow needless and occasionally hurtful? Don't they understand it's funny, especially when I'm not part of the group being lampooned?
It's the end of the world.
I am a Miami of Ohio alumni, we used to be the Redskins (which I guess you could argue is racist to some degree) however we were made to change our mascot to the Redhawk – despite the fact that the Chief of the Miami Indians (as I recall) had no problem with us honoring their tribe.
Being part Comanche (though admittedly not in touch with that side of my heritage) I still see no issue with it. The rest of my background is mostly Scottish, and I would have zero issue with a Highlander Mascot depicting my ancestors as kilt wearing, claymore wielding warriors. Which by the way I've seen such mascots in the US and in New Zealand (which has a large scottish community, and I don't see them getting their kilts in a twist)
I think we've gone overboard on being "PC" –
The Scottish were not the victims of one of the most complete and extensive genocides of all time.
but you saw braveheart, right?
so if your people are victoms of attrocities, no-go logo? hmmm makes sense. fighting irish? potato famine?
History is clear: it wasn't a war against a race – it was a war for land. In the same way that many, but not all, indian tribes warred for land before Columbus time. Genocide falsely makes it a racial issue when it isn't. Had native Americans been white, it would have been the same result – a war for land. Sloppy, sloppy thinking masquerading as compassion. The P.C. police are ever vigilant.
Neither were the American Indians. Genocide had nothing to do with their demise.
If you all really believe that I suggest you read up on your history.
Hi. I am an American indian and traced my family back to the "Trail of Tears". I am not offended by teams using Indian logos or names. Neither am I offended by the use of Indians names for lakes, mountains, parks, rivers, etc. If anything, I believe the use of such names brings recognition and rememberance of our peoples. Thank you.
You're totally within your right to not be offended. But keep in mind most of the people defending it could care less about your people. For them it's just a stupid tradition and they act like teenagers who don't wanna be told how to live their lives, man, just wait until I turn 18 I'm so outa here.
But yeah, they aren't supporting it for the right reasons, even if you are.
Thank you.
Amen! Without Indians Mascots! No one would know anything about the Native Americans
Yeah! Because you know, people learn a LOT from mascots.
Why not hold a contest for native American kids to create their own designs? I bet at least several would be really great and might even build a new fan base for the team.
Rickapolis, i don't think it's clear at all.
it seems to me that we go way overboard and need to stop wearing our feelings on our sleeves, on BOTH sides of the issue. The intent was never to harm or injure anyone, so let the screaming Indian scream.
So how would people in the USA react if there was a soccer team in England called the "Colonists" and they were portrayed as angry, gun-toting beer drinkers.
Considering British America was established by the British, and the colonists were British (for 169 years until 1776) the British would be stereotyping themselves in the manner you describe.
Although, I do agree with your implication that this, at times, is an ugly side of rabid fanaticism. I have been to Phila. Eagles games, most recently RGIII and the Redskins visiting Andy Reid's last home game. Horrible, horrible, horrible experience. Never going back.
I think it would be hilarious.
A lesson that is proving hard to learn is that the derisively used 'PC' does not mean that it is wrong. Clearly, the screaming Indian is racist. It is offensive. And calling it 'politically correct' doesn't change that. It needs to go (as does the name 'Redskins' for the Washington football team). We're in the 21st century. Time to behave like it.
How, exactly, is this racist?
It is clearly, not clear. How is screaming offensive? Why is it offensive to be represented by a native?
In other news:
The Cowboys will get rid of their cowboy mascot because it unfairly depicts white people.
Oh wait, that hasn't happened.
The Screaming Indian, and every other team mascot or logo is NOT racist. Just look up the word. Racism is believing in the inherent superiority or inferiority of a particular race; or discriminating based on race.
How is the Screaming Indian either of those?
Team mascots are chosen for their POSITIVE traits. Braves, Indians, Cowboys, Chiefs, or Fighting Irish: all represent bravery, honor, strength, perseverance, and talent. It is no different than the Bruins, Bears, Sharks, Patriots, or Kings.
They're just sports teams totems.
I think this is P.C. overboard.
Uh... Cowboys aren't all white and cowboy isn't an ethnic group, genius
Blazing Saddles. 🙂
Amen, Bill.......wait, can I say "Amen?"
Bill: White people do not have a history of being discriminated against nor were we conquered by people from another shore, nor kidnapped and brought to this country against our will. We were never taken from our land and forced into reservations, nor were we forced to work as slaves. But we have over the generations created images that justify our treatment of those whom we did conquer, enslave and put down. To wit: the woman on the box of Aunt Jemina pancake mix is a racial stereotype from the days of slavery; she's known as 'the mammy'. And the image of native americans as warriors continues as a reason for having taken away the land from those 'savages'. There's hundreds more caricatures that have become so common that we, the white people, don't recognize them for what they are. But the people whom they caricature do!
Ted FYI the majority of early slaves in the New World were white slaves from Ireland. Most people dont realize this and it is widely underscored/not mentioned in many history books. Also you can reallyt use the term "we the white people". Just because I may be white does not mean my ancestors are even closely related to your ancestors. You are actually doing the same thing by putting all white people into one category. C'mon. White people come from all types of backgrounds and countries. I am offended I get mixed in with any possible white person. Thats just like saying all Native Americans are the same. There is far more culture that goes into just being "white", Native American, black, etc.
On the other hand I do agree that you are correct with the point that we fail to realize these caricatures and stereotypes unless it happens to our specfic background/culture.
"They're just sports teams totems."
I think that this is what today's Native American people would like to avoid being, "just" a sports team totem. I wish that the 550+ tribes in North America alone are better, more thoughtfully, more accurately represented and different from each other than one catch-all generic "screaming" Indian.
If by bravery you mean defenseless Native American women, children, and the elderly being shot in the back at Wounded Knee, then I guess you are correct. The fact that Native Americans opened their arms to whites when they first arrived from Europe is an example of bravery. The sad fact is that they were lied to, abused, and murdered. Most sports teams named after Native Americans are repugnant to our indigenous people. Unless these teams have an official document from a tribe or other Native American group in support of the name these names should be changed.
interview some elders from in my area and you will find that a common comment made by these ancestors of custers last stand and battles that happened on the way to the hangings in Mankato, MN is that both indians and caucasions were guilty of atrocities. Some instigated by white and some instigated by indian. Oh, yes, there is also personal prefferance amongst each individual whether to be called Native American or Indian. Some say anyone born on this continent is a Native American, therefore "I am an Indian" then there are others who dislike "Indian" and claim only the PC definition of Native American. SO CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!!!
You used Braves, but what about Redskins? Do you really think that honors anyone? If the Seminole Indians have no problem with FSU then that is fine but I doubt that any tribe is good with the Redskins.
It's sad that people spend so much energy on things that don't matter. Want to treat Native Americans with respect? Give them their land back. Mascots and logos on caps are red herrings.
Start by giving them back your home. Be a leader .